Submitted by starfyredragon t3_zmt3lg in askscience
starfyredragon OP t1_j0dr6ed wrote
Reply to comment by Weed_O_Whirler in Does rotation break relativity? by starfyredragon
Thanks, that makes it clear!
So movement is relative, but changes in movement aren't. Weird, but makes sense.
littlebitsofspider t1_j0dvema wrote
This is actually a super deep question you've asked, OP. Check out Mach's Principle and absolute rotation, these things are being debated even today.
starfyredragon OP t1_j0dwstx wrote
Thanks, I'll definitely check them out!
[deleted] t1_j0gag9l wrote
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Experienced_AP t1_j0gl0ys wrote
Explanations of Mach's principle and the analogy of the bucket rotating with the water inside (was that Newton?) make my brain go blue screen.
[deleted] t1_j0fwja1 wrote
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obog t1_j0fdjxw wrote
Linear movement continues without any force, however rotation needs a constant force to continue, that being the centripetal force. Seems odd because a force doesn't seem to be applied to a spinning object in space, but technically there has to be some force on anywhere outside of the center of mass, likely some sort of tension force (or in the case of larger objects like planets, gravity).
Edit: I want to clarify that that necessary force isn't necessarily external. A rotating object will continue rotating without an external force, however within the single object, particles near the outside of rotation will have a force of tension pulling them back towards the center, which is also the centripetal force. If that force didn't exist, the object would break apart.
JCSterlace t1_j0ggxgj wrote
The rotation of an isolated solid object does not need a constant force to continue - angular momentum is conserved. Some internal forces holding the object together (to make it solid) would be acting centripetally, but that's internal to the object, not acting on the object.
obog t1_j0gjdr9 wrote
Those internal forces are what I meant, as such the object is still technically accelerating
VoilaVoilaWashington t1_j0gmqc8 wrote
The internal forces are causing the outer parts to accelerate around the center. If you swing a hammer while you spin in a circle, it's your hand that's accelerating the hammer and keeping it moving around you. Let go, and it goes flying.
That was their point - you need something keeping it all together outside the center of mass, or it will just fall apart.
[deleted] t1_j0fkpbk wrote
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Quartersharp t1_j0fnrfp wrote
It does… a little bit. A rotating object will have its outer parts under tension because of the centripetal acceleration, which wants to pull them outward. Unless the object flies apart, it is doing a tiny amount of work by staying intact while rotating, because its outer parts have to keep changing direction. Because of this, the object will also radiate gravitational waves, and will very gradually slow down, probably over thousands and millions of years.
rpetre t1_j0forax wrote
Nitpick: "centripetal" means "towards the centre", so in your example the tension IS the centripetal acceleration, it's what keeps the parts of the body on their respective circular trajectories.
wasmic t1_j0g22v9 wrote
No. There's no work being done from the rotation itself, if the object is perfectly rigid. Of course, in the ideal case there is work being done due to tiny stretches all over the place, but that should all cancel out because it both stretches and contracts to keep the same shape. With no overall radial motion coaxial with the force, there is no work being done.
Also, a spinning sphere, or a cylinder spinning around its own axis, will not emit gravitational waves. But something like a rotating cog would emit gravitational waves.
Putnam3145 t1_j0g7zxw wrote
A perfectly rigid object has a faster-than-light speed of sound, among other problems, and is thus unphysical
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PefferPack t1_j0fu27b wrote
>it is doing a tiny amount of work by staying intact while rotating, because its outer parts have to keep changing direction
Really? This is kindof mind-blowing if true. Work is force dot displacement, so if there's no displacement in the radial direction, then there's no work done. If the body can be considered rigid then there is no radial displacement. Even in a flexible body, there would only be a short transient period of radial displacement as it stretches out from the rotational forces.
wasmic t1_j0g1tt6 wrote
Yeah, I don't think there's a connection between gravitational waves here, and there's no work being done to keep a rotating object together.
Gravitational waves are not emitted from spherically or cylindrically symmetric objects, either (provided the cylindrical axis is the rotational axis).
TheSmartestBanana t1_j0gjwf6 wrote
I believe the net centripetal force (toward the center) is balanced out by the net centrifugal force (toward the outside/perimeter). Therefore there is zero net force and zero net acceleration on an object rotating at constant angular velocity.
A force does not need to be applied to keep an object spinning in space (think planets and moons). It is valid to say that an object that is rotating will remain in rotation unless acted upon by an outside force (conservation of angular momentum).
obog t1_j0gnqyo wrote
The centrifugal force isn't real, it's only an observed force when you're inside the rotating frame of reference. A constant force does still have to be applied, it's just often an internal force, not an external one. In the case of an object rotating in space, there is a force of tension acting in the outer parts of the object pulling them back towards the center. Due to that the object will stay in rotation without any outside force, but the key term there is outside. there still has to be some force to keep an object rotating, it can just be an internal force. That internal force (as I said, the force of tension for an object rotating) is the centripetal force.
TheSmartestBanana t1_j0gqq4u wrote
Centripetal force can only be felt by a point inside the rotating body as well. That point obviously has an acceleration because the directional component of its velocity is changing constantly. The rotating object as a whole is not accelerating and therefore requires no net force. There are a lot of forces that hold an object together, but those forces do no cause an acceleration on that object and therefore cause no force to act on the object itself as a whole.
atmsk90 t1_j0hgbik wrote
I think there is some confusion between static and dynamic equilibrium here. Centrifugal "force" is simply inertia. It's much easier to visualize by considering a point mass on a massless arm. The arm has to exert a force on the mass not as a result of any applied force from somewhere else, but just as a result of needing to accelerate the mass toward the center of rotation.
hydroxypcp t1_j0kuo20 wrote
for this question you do have to look at individual particles of the rotating body though. If we take a human body as the rotating body, then the eyes are accelerating and thus not an inertial frame of reference
_Jaquen_Hgar_ t1_j0giqrw wrote
Yes it is very weird. It highlights the fact that there is no such thing as absolute position, only relative position.
Aedene t1_j0gmuxi wrote
I also would think that rotational movement is not movement through spacetime, even if it changes the "1st person" frame of directionality (forward is now right, then behind you, then left, etc.), it doesn't change the reference of ones position in spacetime. So, even if you were rotating at a constant rate in the vacume of space, not accelerating, your frame of reference is the same as that of a rotating planet or star.
The night sky "spins" at well above the speed of light for the furthest stars, but that's never contradicted relativity because that's based on position, not rotation, over time.
MagicSquare8-9 t1_j0jjg0g wrote
The above poster are talking about special relativity only. It's "special" because it's only specific to inertia frame. So for the sake of completeness I will talk about general relativity, which follows the principle of general covariance, in which all frame of references are valid; in other word, all time and distance measurement are relative. This should show you the real crux of the problem: it's not that "acceleration is absolute and speed is relative", but rather "physical constants are differed between accelerating frame".
To achieve general covariance, general relativity comes with metric tensor. The metric tensor measure proper time and proper length, and this way we unshackle the concept of length and time from the coordinate. The metric tensor is obviously needed since an arbitrary coordinate system means you can pick system in which directions are distorted (e.g. 2 units to the right has equal length as 10 units to the front).
So you're now free to rotate your coordinate system at will. These distance galaxy will move at insane speed in your system of coordinate, but if you look at the metric their speed is completely normal.
So what's the lesson from this? Coordinate system is a completely arbitrary construct that has nothing to do with actual physic. There is nothing wrong with an object moving fast according to the coordinate system. If you have a rotating coordinate system, it's as strange as having a scaling coordinate system where the length of the axes changes over time; in either case, far away objects will appear to move too fast according to the coordinate system, but nothing actually physically change.
starfyredragon OP t1_j0jqwqb wrote
That makes sense
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