Submitted by curiousnboredd t3_10nh3ui in askscience
AquaSlothNC t1_j69o0fi wrote
Reply to comment by Mammoth-Corner in Why can an adult’s GI tract expel C. botulinum spores while an infant can’t? by curiousnboredd
In addition to this comment, pH also plays a very important factor in botulism sporulating in the stomach. The pH of an infants stomach acid is not low enough to prevent botulism from germinating (come out of spore-form). I believe the magic number is 4.6 if memory serves from classes in college. Under that acidity, the conditions are too acidic for clostridium botulinum to germinate and release its toxin. Newborns have not yet developed the gastrointestinal pH that older humans have to prevent this. I looked it up and adults are around 1.5-2.0. So too acidic for botulism to do it’s dirty work.
Edit: Sentence structure. Fixed for clarity. Edit 2: found the pH of adult stomach acid.
girnigoe t1_j6bbxui wrote
yes! acidity is also the reason that botulism isn’t SO likely in fruit jams, but more likely to be a problem in canned meat.
what i didn’t understand about infant botulism for a long time is: for adults the SPORES aren’t a problem, because they die in your gut. the toxins left over that the bacteria created (pooped out?) while living in the nonacidic canned food is what makes us very sick. for BABIES the problem is the spores can literally create more bacteria in their tummies / intestines, & hang out there eating food & making toxin
eldude2879 t1_j6c7stw wrote
they told you when I was young canned food goes off in like 24 hours after opening, I never heard anyone in my town to get this
beyond_hatred t1_j6chxl6 wrote
Canned food is cooked while inside the sealed can. You get botulism from canned food when the can is compromised or leaking, allowing the bacteria to get in and grow on the food.
Mammoth-Corner t1_j6ckjqz wrote
Botulinum spores can withstand fairly high temperatures and is an anaerobic bacteria; that makes it hardy against for the two major features of cans that keep the food safe. One of the real dangers of botulinum is that food safety rules that protect against other bacteria are insufficient.
A can doesn't need to be burst or leaking to get the bacteria inside because the spores are probably already there. It's when the can or jar was heat-treated at a temperature which was too low (still hot enough to kill off everything else!) or the conditions inside are not acidic enough that it will germinate from the spores and start producing botulinum toxin.
And, because it's the toxin that causes the disease, not the bacteria, re-cooking the food to temperatures that we would usually consider safe might kill the bacteria but the toxin is still there.
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eldude2879 t1_j6d88tl wrote
I sorta remember putting a plastic bag over can as child and putting in the cooler and I got scolded like I was a terrorist gonna take out the whole block
this was a real fear
piklester t1_j6dbtc6 wrote
Assuming it was an unopened can, freezing it could cause the can to 'explode' . You see it happen with drink cans a lot because of the thinner material and the carbonation in lots of drinks but it can happen with any sealed liquids without room to expand.
https://youtu.be/t5mdZD00POs this guy demonstrates it by freezing a sealed pipe with liquid nitrogen to spread up the process
eldude2879 t1_j6dcsew wrote
this was back in the day when booti killed a few every year
many things were different, back then they said the children are the future
we were so clever with computers and stuff
nobody says that anymore, kids are dum as rocks
TheNakedFoot t1_j6gm5z6 wrote
That video was really cool. I knew ice expansion was strong but I didn't know it took so little. And the remaining water interacting with the LN2 was awesome too
girnigoe t1_j6drk51 wrote
oh, cannes food going bad after it’s opened is not botulism, any more than a salad going bad in the fridge. that’s other processes & organisms.
botulism grows in NON-ACIDIC, ANOXIC environments. so it can grow inside the can (no oxygen), before the can is opened. industrial canning processes get very very hot to kill the spores so they don’t grow even when the environment is right.
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lordbubax t1_j6d33ds wrote
> acidity is also the reason that botulism isn’t SO likely in fruit jams, but more likely to be a problem in canned meat.
Isn't it due to fruit jams high sugar concentration?
PBlueKan t1_j6dc98y wrote
No. One of the most common pathways infants are infected with C. botulinum spores is through honey.
The bacteria goes dormant in spores which are incredibly hard to kill. Sugar has nothing to do with it.
girnigoe t1_j6dqxdp wrote
so, the thing about honey seems weird (maybe you have more info than i do though).)
i read in a medical source that after the widespread campaign to NEVER feed babies honey, which every US parent myst have heard of at this point, the rates of infant botulism… did not change.
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MyFacade t1_j69pt63 wrote
So antacids increase the risk?
snakegriffin19 t1_j69vy91 wrote
Long term use of proton pump inhibitors, such as omeprazole or nexium, will increase your risk for Cdiff infection. Very similar process
MaungaHikoi t1_j6a9iqp wrote
How long is long term?
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doc_death t1_j6b8o37 wrote
This plays a role into why babies can spit up so much more than adults. If we did that, our esophagus would be toast
Kingnahum17 t1_j6bjbcl wrote
So how would you get botulism from separated cheese from a fast food restaurant? This has happened to me a number of years ago, and as far as I could tell, I was otherwise quite healthy at the time.
pathoj3nn t1_j6bzjmu wrote
It’s more likely in that instance that the separated cheese came from a botulism infected source. Clostridium botulinum is a obligate anaerobe so it can’t grow in the air we breathe but it can grow in canned food. Can then gets super puffy and if someone doesn’t notice or realize the problem all the toxins go into the food. You can to cook the food at a high temperature for a long time to inactivate it making botulism one of the big food poisoning agents.
Mammoth-Corner t1_j6cldtp wrote
The word botulism refers to a disease caused by the botulinum toxin, not to infection by the bacteria itself. In babies infection that then produces the toxin is the bigger risk, but in adults the larger risk is poisoning from food that has been contaminated with botulinum and that has not been stored in such a way to stop the bacteria spores germinating. So you would not have had a gut infection as I've described, you would probably have eaten the cheese and your gut would have killed off the bacteria but absorbed the toxin.
I am interested that it's cheese though! Botulism is usually associated with canned/preserved goods, and it's an anaerobic bacteria, so I wouldn't expect it to like cheese. When you say 'separated,' do you mean curdled/separated into curds and whey? I found this article that shows that dairy with botulinum contamination does curdle (as curdling is a chemical process and not an organic one, many milk contaminants do not cause it): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10456739/
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The-fire-guy t1_j6d084q wrote
Wait, why would we care about sporulation in the stomach? It's the active bacteria that's the problem in intestinal colonization botulism, no?
AquaSlothNC t1_j6exaet wrote
The bacterium can germinate in a beneficial environment with good growth conditions. If it germinates out of the spore in the stomach it may be able pass to the intestines (unclear). Or it may remain dormant and become active past the stomach.
Per the CDC -"Adult intestinal toxemia (also known as adult intestinal colonization) botulism is a very rare kind of botulism that can happen if the spores of the bacteria get into an adult’s intestines, grow, and produce the toxin (similar to infant botulism). Although we don’t know why people get this kind of botulism, people who have serious health conditions that affect the gut may be more likely to get sick."
I was trying to provide info of the bacteria in general as it pertains to infants and their digestive system and what pH conditions it can/cant grow in, so I thought it was helpful to look at the pH environment of the stomach too. Since we don't know exactly how adults get intestinal botulism I threw it in as additional info. Also, a lot of people don't know about botulinum spores and how pH plays a role so I thought I'd share.
The-fire-guy t1_j6f0qk5 wrote
Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to be snippy, I appreciate the information either way. But are you using "sporulate" here to mean "becoming active"? Isn't it the other way around?
If not, how is the bacterium going dormant an issue if it has already entered the body?
AquaSlothNC t1_j6f4sms wrote
No not at all! I appreciate the catch and you're totally right. I used the wrong term and had meant germination, not sporulation. Its been awhile since i've had to think about this lifecycle. Sorry about that! I've corrected my previous posts and used 'germinate' where applicable.
[deleted] t1_j6euy70 wrote
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Halcyon_Rein t1_j6dqtct wrote
What do you mean by sporulate? Isn’t this a bacteria we’re talking about?
I was totally unaware bacteria could have spores
AquaSlothNC t1_j6etvjb wrote
Hi! So when Clostridium botulinum is in a harsh (example: acidic) environment it goes dormant and forms a spore to protect itself (sporulation). It will stay dormant in its spore-form until the surrounding environment is optimal for it to survive, become active (germinate), grow, and produce the neurotoxic protein. A Clostridium botulinum spore refers to the dormant state of the bacterium. Germination is when it comes out of dormancy and is not longer in its protective spore. Bacillus and Clostridium are two common spore forming bacteria. Hope that answered your question!
Cannie_Flippington t1_j6jet4j wrote
I told a lady once that she really shouldn't give her infant honey because of the botulism risk and she just flat out said that I was making it up.
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