Submitted by AlwaysGrateful710 t3_ypo8l4 in baltimore

Have you seen those sign about voting against question k to stop fox’s attach on Baltimore? I understand question K on the ballot but do not understand how fox is attacking Baltimore with this.

Any insight would be helpful!

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Classifiedgarlic t1_ivki0z7 wrote

I’m disappointed with this post. I was hoping for actual foxes attacking

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goober3 t1_ivknz0n wrote

I've been seeing more foxes out and about than usual lately so I thought this post was about foxes ):

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Nice-Fly5536 t1_ivlirwh wrote

I was sitting on my porch one night a few summers ago (in Baltimore) minding my business, and from the corner of my eye I saw something small running fast down the sidewalk. I thought it was a cat or maybe a small dog, and then I realized it was a fox. We both ran in opposite directions of each other. I was terrified 😂😂😂

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wave-garden t1_ivlhdk2 wrote

Not Baltimore, but I saw a fox running in the parking lot at my job in urban MoCo and thought that was pretty weird.

It did not attack [me] however.

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UsualFirefighter9 t1_ivkrm72 wrote

Not so much attacking because prob rabies and just, no, thanks, we're good...but knowing I wasnt seeing things on 295 the other night wouldve been nice.

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ChiselFish t1_ivn1qs7 wrote

I thought it was about the fox that lives in Patterson Park attacking someone on Baltimore St.

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YoYoMoMa t1_ivk0g15 wrote

Term limits have been shown to increase private institutions and lobbyist power.

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boarbar t1_ivkl9bs wrote

You got a source for that?

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YoYoMoMa t1_ivkm13o wrote

Yeah. Lemme dig it back up.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2018/01/18/five-reasons-to-oppose-congressional-term-limits/

Take lobbyist influence, for example. Term limit advocates contend lawmakers unconcerned with reelection will rebuff special interest pressures in favor of crafting and voting for legislation solely on its merits. However, the term limit literature commonly finds that more novice legislators will look to fill their own informational and policy gaps by an increased reliance on special interests and lobbyists. Relatedly, lawmakers in states with term limits have been found—including from this 2006 50-state survey—to increase deference to agencies, bureaucrats, and executives within their respective states and countries simply because the longer serving officials have more experience with the matters.

Advocates also suggest that limiting the number of terms lawmakers can serve will ultimately result in fewer members looking to capitalize on their Hill relationships and policymaking experience by becoming lobbyists themselves. Establishing term limits, however, would likely worsen the revolving door problem between Congress and the private sector given that mandating member exits ensures a predictable and consistently high number of former members available to peddle their influence. The revolving door phenomenon is considered a normative problem without term limits and relatively few departing members per cycle. With term limits, the number of influential former members would drastically increase, giving more private sector landing spots to members whose time has run out. More lobbying firms would have members able to advance their special interests with former members making use of their relationships and deep understanding of the ways of the Hill.

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baltinerdist t1_ivl0ynn wrote

I would be in favor of fairly expansive term limits to help mitigate the concerns but still encourage a little bit of turnover there. Something like 18 years for House and 18 years for Senate. Between the two, you would have the ability to have a 36 year career on the Hill which is more time than many people spend in one job.

That gives plenty of time for continuity and knowledge building but prevents any one person from setting up shop their entire life and preventing anyone from the next generation from having a chance due to the incumbency advantage.

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YoYoMoMa t1_ivl1csu wrote

I think that might be acceptable. But then again we would lose some expertise in a job that is insanely difficult to learn and relies heavily on institutional and procedural knowledge.

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CompetitionEgg t1_ivo5asm wrote

What’s the problem? I trust businesses to make better choices for Baltimore than I do its ineffectual and complicit politicians.

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YoYoMoMa t1_ivoc9cs wrote

You realize that politicians will still be there, right? The question is whether or not you want the people choosing their politicians or companies choosing them.

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CompetitionEgg t1_ivpjtx2 wrote

In Baltimore? For my benefit? Absolutely, 100% I want special interests deciding.

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivk1rhy wrote

Also, they prevent bad politicians from becoming lifelong politicians. Since the political base is hell-bent on preventing any Republicans/Libertarians/Greens from even appearing on the ballot, it's the good tool (if a little blunt) for dislodging the dynastic political elite.

Is it perfect? No. Will some good get tossed with the bad? Yes. Does it mean the idea is bad? Not at all, especially since many offices in the state are term limited as well.

Hell, you could say the governor is the position that will suffer the most from brain drain and constant change. But few voters object since Hogan is a Republican (even the kind they bemoan for not existing for taking a public stand against the Orange one).

Besides, given the state of the city, I'd be willing to roll the dice with private institution and lobbyists. Why not give it a shot for a decade and see what happens?

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HowManyMeeses t1_ivk40rz wrote

>Also, they prevent bad politicians from becoming lifelong politicians.

Voting does this too.

>Why not give it a shot for a decade and see what happens?

The folks trying to get power don't like giving it up once they have it.

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivkxu8p wrote

At a local level, incumbents enjoy a 90%+ reelection rate. Even standardizing for name recognition bias doesn't come close to explaining this.

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HowManyMeeses t1_ivkyhsn wrote

What point are you trying to make here?

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivl4guv wrote

Trying to counter the argument that every election cycle is an unbiased way to hold elected officials accountable. We have data that confirms the opposite.

Those who get elected one time hold an almost insurmountable advantage over any challenger. So simply saying we have elections isn't addressing the scope of the problem of incumbency advantage. Hell, it isn't even acknowledging a problem might exist.

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HowManyMeeses t1_ivliia8 wrote

Nothing is unbiased. I'm saying there's already a tool in place to stop a politician from being in office.

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivlm5ap wrote

I agree. I'll even agree that term limits aren't the perfect tool. My feeling against them has nothing to do with signs about Fox news posted by the Democrat machine that controls Baltimore but for the underlying curb on free speech they include. That said, for me, the juice is worth the squeeze.

Again, the incumbent advantage is almost impossible for challengers to overcome. While we might lose an effective servant after close to a decade of service, we are also excluding a ton of younger, more dynamic, more representative officials and the new/fresh thinking that comes with them.

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HowManyMeeses t1_ivlmuh0 wrote

>posted by the Democrat machine that controls Baltimore

LOL. I wonder why you might not mind that right-wing media is involved.

>but for the underlying curb on free speech they include

Do what now?

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivm3bep wrote

I have zero love (or hate) for Fox. I'm a proud Libertarian nutjob that despises the Trump/Fox metastasized iteration of the Republican party.

My personal problem with term limits is that they represent a curb on freedom of speech/expression. My ability to express my political thought by voting for whoever I want to. I do believe however they they will do more good than harm. But it's not an absolute by any stretch, even if I'm forced to argue it like it is.

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YoYoMoMa t1_ivk45vh wrote

>Also, they prevent bad politicians from becoming lifelong politicians

That is up to the voters. Who you think are bad politicians must not be what most people think. No need to overrule democracy because you don't like the results.

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sellwinerugs t1_ivk8eum wrote

Exactly, term limits already exist; it’s called Election Day. When a candidate gets voted out their term is up.

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YoYoMoMa t1_ivka4n0 wrote

And I do not think term limits are always awful. But for low level legislative bodies they are just a giant gift to corporations.

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sellwinerugs t1_ivk8tkc wrote

Councilwoman Ramos’ take on it was a helpful read, although I can’t find it now. Basically it’s not the concept of term limits that is on the ballot, it’s how this question is written. It’s asking for all terms to come up at the same time which would cause mayhem in our political system if all positions were replaced at once with no continuity from previous admins.

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Bitsycat11 t1_ivk4nuz wrote

Roll the dice with private institutions and lobbyists???? Holy yikes lil bro

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivkz25g wrote

Open to suggestions on improving the competency of our local elected officials. Because elections don't seem to be doing it.

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Bitsycat11 t1_ivl3qnu wrote

I don't think handing the keys to the city to Comcast or Coca-Cola would serve us any better ngl

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No-Lunch4249 t1_ivk45dy wrote

Term limits is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivkynyy wrote

Yes, it's not perfect. You will force some competent people to either move up or move on. But the baby that goes out with the bathwater shouldn't get to live there in perpetuity just because they won election once.

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mcplaty t1_ivl2otk wrote

They're not winning once, they're winning every election. You want to circumvent democracy and force people out after an arbitrary amount of time rather than let the voters decide.

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivlngse wrote

No. I want the voters to decide democratically if they want to counter the incumbent advantage to combat ineffectual and unrepresentative lifelong politicians. If it sucks, we can repeal it in X years.

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mcplaty t1_ivlq6z4 wrote

Voters decide if they want to counter incumbent advantage by... voting for someone else. Not by imposing term limits and removing the ability to continue voting for that person.

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivm3sdt wrote

Right. Just so we are both clear that the incumbent advantage renders many votes moot by means of institutionalized advantage.

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Slime__queen t1_ivk9rnl wrote

Not everyone is in a fortunate enough position to be willing to just risk a decade of their life on “seeing what happens”

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivkyfgm wrote

Risk a decade of life? That's some Trump level bombast right there friend.

This is term limits we're talking about, a concept integrated into our political system from local to national levels and used by democracies all over the world.

I'm not suggesting we abolish fiat currency or privatizing roads. Let's just do away with local fiefdoms in a single party power city and see if that produces better results.

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Slime__queen t1_ivl2hep wrote

I’m referring to you saying “give it a shot for a decade” and that not everyone will be as unaffected by what might go on in that decade as you seem to believe you will

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivl3sj2 wrote

And I'm saying you're catastrophizing as a rhetorical slight of hand.

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shebang_bin_bash t1_ivljgqs wrote

What skin do you have in the game? Do you live in the city?

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivllh0u wrote

Didn't know we had purity tests here, but yes, I live in the city and have for the past 20+ years.

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PrettyFIacco t1_ivkidq1 wrote

Lmao do you think private institutions and lobbyists have been excluded from our political process in literally any way?

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EfficiencySuch6361 t1_ivkhzhc wrote

U do realize that things could be worse? There are no actual fleshed-out Republican/libertarian strategies, their whole schtick in Baltimore is “we aren’t democrats” literally no policy otherwise. So how someone could assume that the groups without any explicit or sensible plans are going to improve things? Doesn’t make any sense

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[deleted] t1_ivjyopf wrote

It’s not Fox, it’s Sinclair broadcasting, who are a very similar organization but much less well known by name. The particulars of it, though, would be better googled.

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No-Lunch4249 t1_ivk3qws wrote

The TL;DR is that Sinclair (a Cockeyeville based company) is a massive owner of local tv stations, I believe one of the biggest in the country. And Sinclair supports the term limits ballot issue.

While they don’t just own Fox affiliates, Sinclair does own WBFF, Baltimores fox affiliate. And anyone who has ever watched the news on that channel can tell you it definitely leans conservative, their “news reporting” tends to be moreso thinly veiled opinion pieces.

And this is not an isolated incident. A study previously found that stations they bought move away from neutral coverage of local news and towards more national news cover with a conservative bent.

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[deleted] t1_ivk51vb wrote

The biggest owner of local tv news.

They’re evil af and hypocrites.

They railed against cannabis legalization for years and were the first investors in medical (David Smith, ceo is or was a heavy investor in curio wellness).

The Smiths of Sinclair broadcasting married into the Paterakis family of Harbor East real estate and started the shitty, racist Atlas Group restaurants.

And as you said, they spread racist, conservative propaganda throughout the country.

Their “reporters” are very clearly all given the same script on certain issues nationwide, so you can see a ton of different local “news” anchor with verbatim speeches

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Bitsycat11 t1_ivk4vs4 wrote

The same people also own Atlas restaurant group/harbor east.

Fuck Atlas.

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interprime t1_ivkn9dm wrote

This video shows how Sinclair operates in under 2 minutes. Dozens of stations across the country, spewing out the exact same script just to further Sinclair’s agenda.

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2cats4ever t1_ivk7ib8 wrote

The measure was also personally funded by David Smith, Sinclair's majority owner.

At the same time, Fox has run numerous pro-Question K stories that feature no reporting on opposition to the measure, and neglect to mention their owner's involvement in getting it on the ballot.

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justlikemojohand8457 t1_ivl5zkl wrote

Baltimore native I live in Bristol Virginia Sinclair owns my local TV station WCYB. They force the local to run "news reports" from various "correspondents" during the local newscast that often "compliment" the day's news from the local announcers.

Leaves little time for real local news when they're always turning to CRT or alien hordes coming over the border.

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Biomirth t1_ivm7zkf wrote

>compliment

Just an FYI, in that context it's complement.

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AlwaysGrateful710 OP t1_ivk7o3g wrote

Thanks for clarifying, the signs were very confusing for someone who doesn’t know that 😅

Glad I’ve gotten a better understanding before voting today. Thanks a bunch to everyone!

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mordello t1_ivkpgcp wrote

Question K is the only proposed charter amendment not sponsored by anyone on city council. Sinclair spent ~ $400k promoting this. That knowledge was all I need to arrive at a NO vote even if councilpersons and mayors are only interested in preserving their positions.

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[deleted] t1_ivk80xa wrote

As someone else mentioned, they own fox affiliated local stations like fox 45/wbff (it’s one of their flagship stations).

And as you can see from wbff’s reporting, it’s national news with a heavy conservative lean and little regard for accuracy or actual local news

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Puzzleheaded-Ad-1877 t1_ivjzvc5 wrote

The campaign to limit people's ability to reelect the leaders of their choice has been entirely bankrolled by the head of the right wing propaganda network Sinclair Broadcasting

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EfficiencySuch6361 t1_ivkiale wrote

I love the way that u put this. In my mind, term limits is a play to be able to have a “buyable” politician who isn’t working for the people in office as often as possible

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sllewgh t1_ivl9ydg wrote

It's more than that. If this passes, most current elected positions will be up at the 8 year mark. They aren't just looking to buy politicians, they get a chance to buy a set of politicians.

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Bravesfan043 t1_ivkm5oj wrote

Just voted against initiative K without knowing any of the background to who funded it. It was the only initiative I voted against. I’ve always felt like term limits are Trumpy, and by that I mean populist BS.

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AdDue1062 t1_ivl8qym wrote

Maybe they care about their city and putting policies in place that will eventually lead to attracting businesses and taxpayers. Getting rid of the entirely corrupt leadership sounds like a great start.

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sllewgh t1_ivla5dc wrote

Voting is the way to do that, not term limits. Few people vote in Baltimore, so it's easier than average to do.

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BJJBean t1_ivkkymb wrote

Not sure why this question is needed. Most of the Baltimore Mayors as of late end up in jail before their second term even hits.

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DfcukinLite t1_ivlnj44 wrote

As of late? Out of the last 10 mayors 2 have gone jail. About 10 years apart. Y’all get on here and say anything

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BJJBean t1_ivlr2ff wrote

Why did you select the last 10 mayors as your data point? I wouldn't consider someone who was mayor in 1975 "as of late".

Since 2010, 50% of our elected mayors have gone to jail. I think my statement rings pretty true, in the modern era Baltimore clearly has a corrupt politician problem.

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DfcukinLite t1_ivlrf6v wrote

Because you said “as of late” the last 10 would be the most recent, correct?

I think your rings false. And you know it. Call it an Exaggeration or hyperbole.

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DfcukinLite t1_ivlyoh8 wrote

Because you said “as of late” the last 10 would be the most recent, correct?

I think your statement rings false. And you know it. Call it an exaggeration or hyperbole.

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivl08gb wrote

DEMOCRATS ON TERM LIMITS:

Barack Obama: “We want to see new voices and new ideas emerge. I think that is why term limits are a really useful thing.”

Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot: “Chicago is the largest city in the country without mayoral term limits,” she notes, which “has led to entrenched leaders, a lack of new ideas and creative thinking and city government that works for the few, not the many.”

U.S. Rep. Beto O’Rourke, TX: “The longer you are in office, the less connected you are to the people you represent, the less accountable, the less responsive. The people in this country understand that and get that and I think it helps to account for our historic low level of popularity.”

New York Governor, Kathy Hochul: “I want people to believe in their government again. With these bold reforms, we will ensure New Yorkers know their leaders work for them and are focused on serving the people of this state,” Gov. Hochul said.

U.S. Sen. John Hickenlooper, Colorado: “I would not be in politics were it not for term limits. It makes sense at all levels of government.”

Andrew Yang, Candidate for NYC Mayor and former Presidential Candidate: “With term limits, members of Congress would get what they went to DC to accomplish done and then go home. It would make room for new leaders with new experiences and fresh ideas. It would make time in Congress about reaching a goal, not reaching retirement after a long career with a good salary at the expense of the public. And it would give legislators a period of time when they didn’t need to constantly fundraise, as their final term wouldn’t hold the option for reelection.”

State Rep. Geraldine Thompson, FL: “I support term limits for elected officials because I believe that too often politicians become entrenched, more concerned about their reelection than the business of the people. Our members of Congress spend too much time fundraising and not enough time governing because their number one concern is their reelection. Term limits ensure that rather than focusing on the next election, our members of Congress will be focused on what they c

Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell: “I believe we should change the charter and every elected official in Philadelphia — controller, district attorney, mayor, and City Council members — should be limited to two terms,” Rendell said. “We would have a more effective and efficient government if we did that.”

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pk10534 t1_ivl8wj8 wrote

Thank you. I really don’t understand why suddenly everybody is acting like opposing unlimited stints in power is conservative, even if Sinclair supports it. I’m sure Sinclair is also against kicking puppies, that doesn’t mean we can’t agree on some basic issues.

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sllewgh t1_ivlaeea wrote

It's irrelevant if it's conservative, what's important is that it's anti democratic. Voters should decide when someone's term is up, not term limits. This just makes it easier to buy politicians, especially when they get the chance to buy them all at once in 8 years.

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pk10534 t1_ivlbuv7 wrote

Yeah you say that, but I guarantee if trump had said “term limits are anti-democratic, I’m gonna change the law so I can run for a third term” you wouldn’t be singing the same tune. It’s preposterous to state that limiting politicians from holding positions of power indefinitely is “anti-democratic”

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sllewgh t1_ivld8lz wrote

There would be a big difference between a president unconstitutionally granting themselves power and voters democratically changing the laws that govern them, so... Shit example. Also, having precedent doesn't make it any less undemocratic.

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pk10534 t1_ivle2ff wrote

So modify it. If trump voters were able to amend the constitution to give trump unlimited terms, you wouldn’t mind that at all and you see nothing wrong with that.

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sllewgh t1_ivlfw0j wrote

You've badly misjudged my politics. No, I will not suddenly have a problem with it just because Trump's name is attached to it, especially given the massive effort, overwhelming popular support and organization that would require.

Do you have an argument in favor of your own beliefs or do you just want to ask about mine? I think voters should decide when someone's term ends. Why do you think they should not have that choice?

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pk10534 t1_ivli0c1 wrote

If the voters pass an amendment establishing term limits, you can’t possibly argue the voters aren’t getting a choice in determining the longevity of a politicians’ career. That is the voters making a choice. It’s obviously able to be changed if the voters decide they don’t want term limits.

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sllewgh t1_ivllgml wrote

Sure, you can pass undemocratic policy democratically. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking about the merits of the policy. Why should this choice be taken from voters?

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pk10534 t1_ivlm486 wrote

The choice is not being taken from voters; they are absolutely able to amend or change any part of the state constitution either through referendum like this proposition or through their candidates to the state legislature. And by that logic, any law or bill passed removes a choice for voters. If voters truly feel the policy needs to be changed, they can enact that change again. You’re treating this like it’s not able to be changed once it gets voted on and that just isn’t true

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sllewgh t1_ivlmxry wrote

You're dodging the question. If this passes, voters will not be able to reelect someone they might want to continue to represent them. We will be taking away that choice. Why is that good or necessary?

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pk10534 t1_ivlppux wrote

I’ve answered the question several times already, I don’t know how many more you’d like me to repeat it: I don’t think it’s beneficial for democracy or society for a politician to hold indefinite power. To expand upon that:

I think it creates political machines and hinders the ability for fresh legislative ideas or meritocracy in legislatures/political bodies because seniority is given preference, no matter how good of a lawmaker one actually is. Incumbencies of a long duration can also create unfair advantages because the name recognition and familiarity can set up steep burdens for new candidates.

By your logic, a monopoly is okay and good because consumers chose it and we shouldn’t remove that “choice” from consumers. But that’s not always true. Sometimes we do need to ensure one entity (person or company) does not obtain too much power or presence over society or a legislature or a field of enterprise.

To further poke holes in your logic, why have age limits or residency requirements or ANY requirements for politicians since it removes people’s “choice”? I don’t buy the argument at all that setting basic standards and ethics for politicians is robbing voters of their choice.

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sllewgh t1_ivlrn4k wrote

>I think it creates political machines and hinders the ability for fresh legislative ideas or meritocracy in legislatures/political bodies because seniority is given preference, no matter how good of a lawmaker one actually is. Incumbencies of a long duration can also create unfair advantages because the name recognition and familiarity can set up steep burdens for new candidates.

Question K does not get us closer to a meritocracy, it takes us further away by indiscriminately removing politicians regardless of their competency. This policy does not serve your stated values, it proposes a paternalistic system that assumes voters can't make good choices on their own, yet relies on them doing so more often.

>By your logic, a monopoly is okay

Please stick to engaging with stuff I actually said instead of making up arguments for me.

>To further poke holes in your logic, why have age limits or residency requirements or ANY requirements for politicians since it removes people’s “choice”?

There are tangible downsides to having children or people who don't live here as representatives.

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pk10534 t1_ivltel5 wrote

Lol that’s exactly what I thought. You admit there are valid reasons as to why certain requirements for the eligibility of politicians to run should be put into place, you just don’t agree with mine. And that’s okay, you don’t have to be for term limits. But you certainly cannot claim I’m removing a choice from the voter when you endorse policies would also, by what you have stated, remove a choice from a voter as long it’s for a “tangible reason”.

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sllewgh t1_ivlttvg wrote

It's not the same thing at all. All children are unqualified for office. Not all incumbents need removal.

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivlmy3b wrote

> I think voters should decide when someone's term ends.

That's what this question is about. Voter deciding if they think term limits are good way to keep the democratic process vibrant and fresh instead of the same terrible candidates winning because they got elected once.

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sllewgh t1_ivlo40w wrote

Hard disagree. This is limiting all candidates, not bad ones.

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The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivlmi9b wrote

> Voters should decide when someone's term is up, not term limits.

Unless they vote FOR term limits. Then the voters are deciding that the incumbent advantage is undemocratic and we shouldn't be beholden to ineffective politicians just because they got elected once.

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sllewgh t1_ivlnya3 wrote

>Unless they vote FOR term limits. Then the voters are deciding that the incumbent advantage is undemocratic

You throw the baby out with the bath water by preventing people that are actually good from continuing to serve.

>and we shouldn't be beholden to ineffective politicians just because they got elected once.

Then vote the ineffective ones out instead of passing a policy that's indiscriminate.

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AdDue1062 t1_ivo8ien wrote

Because they're mostly paid shills. The people have spoken and they are hugely in favor of term limits despite whatever disinformation is being spread.

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pk10534 t1_ivp6pzl wrote

Exactly! Happy to see it passed :)

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VHT4ME t1_ivk8j5l wrote

I don't think term limits are unreasonable. Some career politicians who have been in office for 30+ years are out of touch. Their interpretation of for example the digital millennium copyright act isn't going to be inline with the electorate. Also there is the issue of graft. There are alot of politicians enriching themselves on the job.

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DarthTimGunn t1_ivkfrzc wrote

The problem with Question K is that it limits service in any part of Baltimore government to two terms. I'm fine with term limits for positions. Also I don't trust bills like this that are heavily sponsored by Sinclair broadcasting....it just smells fishy.

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UsualFirefighter9 t1_ivksbdf wrote

ELI5, you get elected mayor, you two term = that's it, you're done, ball game over, you're termed out of MD politics and can't run for governor?

Cause shit, if that's the case, my bad guys, I early voted.

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sllewgh t1_ivlay8z wrote

You can run for a different office, but you can't hold the same position more than two terms.

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UsualFirefighter9 t1_ivqmbe1 wrote

...Fed office too? Like Dutch or Chris V?

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sllewgh t1_ivqtmhj wrote

I don't know for sure, but I doubt a law passed for Baltimore city would apply to higher offices.

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YoYoMoMa t1_ivkabzf wrote

What makes you think an electorate that is so out of touch it will vote in "bad" people will improve by being forced to vote for new people?

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VHT4ME t1_ivkcvji wrote

Virginia's governor is termlimited to one 4 year term. This creates a sense of urgancy and forces action. If your satisfied with the status quo by all means vote against question K. Personally I think new people with new ideas could do alot of good for the city. Everything from roads, to crime, to education, to housing and development.

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YoYoMoMa t1_ivkdfg9 wrote

You cannot compare term limiting the executive and term limiting the legislature.

You know what creates urgency among politicians? The desire to get reelected.

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VHT4ME t1_ivkfmgj wrote

Politicians should concern themselves with providing effective leadership and sound policies not JUST thier reelection campaigns.

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YoYoMoMa t1_ivkfvp6 wrote

Well that is great and all but people perform when they are held to account not by you wishing they be better.

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EfficiencySuch6361 t1_ivkil8w wrote

When someone doesn’t have to worry about getting re-elected more than just once, are they going to do what’s best for the people or what’s best to enrich themselves while in office?

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AdDue1062 t1_ivl9qqw wrote

No, that just creates holistically harmful policies that pander to a base at opportune times. Since everyone here seems to be part of that base, I'm not at all surprised at the state of the city.

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todareistobmore t1_ivl2kwx wrote

> Virginia's governor is termlimited to one 4 year term.

VA's also a state where their Republican governor wasn't chosen via an open primary, which allowed him to run as a moderate and govern like he's doing.

Even for all that's wrong with Hogan, we're so much better off with the system we have.

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Cunninghams_right t1_ivkdbfx wrote

it's interesting to see calls for term limits on politicians be extremely popular, but then when it comes to their locality "ohh no, this is the worst thing ever!".

I wonder if there were some way to tip the scales but not require term limits. for example, maybe after 2 terms, the candidate has to win by 2/3rds majority to hold their seat.

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TheCaptainDamnIt t1_ivkg38f wrote

Ranked choice voting. Let democracy decide.

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Cunninghams_right t1_ivklqqt wrote

yeah, open primaries where the top ~4 candidates (regardless of party) go to the general election would be ideal. I think California does something like this.

that said, we know that incumbent name recognition gives and advantage above and beyond an individual's platform. so if you want the best ideas to win, you want to lean slightly away from incumbents

1

crusaderq42 t1_ivmxer5 wrote

This is a legitimate question: what is the fundamental purpose of term limits? Corruption is a problem, and ineffective representation of voters' issues is a problem. I agree. But how are term limits a solution to those problems?

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Lfc-96 t1_ivklzm7 wrote

K just plays on the idea that government employees are do nothings who just collect a paycheck and provide nothing of value. Imagine all of the institutional knowledge you lose by limiting all positions with term limits. It just creates an environment where businesses can take advantage of the knowledge drain.

There’s a reason why so many people new to politics/government have such a had time following governmental rules (e.g., obligations). Just look at the number of OIG findings from the Trump administration’s appointees and then scale that down to a local level. It would be pure chaos.

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AdDue1062 t1_ivl98h2 wrote

Knowledge in government, good one. It will be such a dark day to lose all the wonderful knowledge around grifting taxpayers, redistributing wealth to criminals, making laws unenforceable, and ignoring infrastructure.

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sllewgh t1_ivlasd3 wrote

Not sure if you're just being edgy and pessimistic or if you really don't understand the functioning of the government and the importance of experience.

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w3tterisb3tter t1_ivleoun wrote

While term limits are good, question K would only allow someone to hold office in baltimore city government for 2 terms. Not any specific seat for two terms, but only hold any combination of offices for a total or 2 terms. This would mean that any candidate who is term-limited in one office would not be allowed to run for another office. That is not how term limits generally workand would totally jack up our local government even more.

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crusaderq42 t1_ivmx0qr wrote

The other significant issue, I believe, with Question K is that the terms all expire simultaneously. So all of the offices affected would be vacated every 8 years. I can't think of any comparable governing body that just disappears all at once like that.

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RandomRivr t1_ivknx62 wrote

I’ve never seen such opposition to term limits as I have in this Baltimore sub.

If you ask people about term limiting out the dinosaurs in Congress like Mitch McConnell and Chuck Grassley, 85% of the country agrees! Term Limit Survey. Term limits are overwhelmingly popular, and are nothing new at the local level. Quick google search shows that 8 of 10 of the largest cities in the US have term limits on their city council.

I’m honestly failing to see why this wouldn’t be a good idea. The arguments against it that I seem to be hearing are “Sinclair supports it therefore it must be bad!”. As cliche as it sounds, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I hear the arguments about fearing increased lobbying money, but it’s not as if Baltimore city’s government has been well run and free of corruption without term limits. Corruption and dark money seep their way into politics, term limits or not. If anything, this will force change from our career politicians and will hopefully create a sense of urgency for those in office to get things done before their terms are up.

If I’m missing anything I’d love to hear more arguments against this, but from the arguments I’ve read, it genuinely seems like the only opposition over this stems from the fact that Sinclair supports it. Our city government has been laughably corrupt and incompetent, why do we want to stick with the status quo and not try something new? I may disagree with Sinclair 99% of the time, but I feel like some pragmatism is needed here when looking at this issue.

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thats_otis t1_ivkym3z wrote

I do not agree with you, but I very much appreciate your thoughtful, informed, and non-confrontational post, especially in a sub that almost 100% also disagrees. Thank you. We all need more of this. gif

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RandomRivr t1_ivl287u wrote

Of course! I’m just genuinely curious to see why so many are opposed to this.

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HowManyMeeses t1_ivkz5w9 wrote

There are plenty of sources in this thread and many others on this topic highlighting why people are against this specific measure. It's weird that you're acting like they're not here.

>it genuinely seems like the only opposition over this stems from the fact that Sinclair supports it

I was initially for the measure and sort of jumped on the fence about it because of Sinclair's support. I commented on it in this sub and a person pretending to be a progressive tried to convince me that it's a good idea. That was enough for me. If the alt-right media is pushing for it and they're using those sorts of tactics to get their way, then I'm fully out.

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AdDue1062 t1_ivlam2j wrote

So you exactly agree that you're only against it because Sinclair is for it. You seem to be an incredible critical thinker who can assess issues for what they are without being steered by what other people think.

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HowManyMeeses t1_ivli72e wrote

I'm not entirely sure why you would think this is a gotcha. I literally said I was influenced by the fact that Sinclair is doing this much to influence the vote on this issue.

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AdDue1062 t1_ivllh9i wrote

I know. And you're an idiot for using that as the main basis of your decision-making. Not a gotcha, just an observation.

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HowManyMeeses t1_ivlmnyj wrote

LOL. Now that you've called me an idiot, I'll definitely vote in favor of it. You've truly made a convincing argument. Nice job!

2

AdDue1062 t1_ivlzrc1 wrote

You'll find a way to do something stupid regardless of what I say, since you're an idiot and all.

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sllewgh t1_ivlbvxe wrote

-Replacing politicians more often makes them easier for private interests to purchase. This effect will be compounded in 8 years when the majority of elected positions in the city all turn over at the same time.

-It is anti-democratic. Voters should decide when terms are up, not artifical limits. Voters should also get to decide that they like who's representing them now and want them to continue.

-It doesn't matter who's advocating for this or whether there's precedent for it. That doesn't impact whether it's right for Baltimore.

-It does not solve any problem. It's a lazy alternative to actually campaigning and voting bad incumbents out. The voters whose choices you disapprove of aren't gonna suddenly change when there's term limits.

5

hymie0 t1_ivmd7ki wrote

>If you ask people about term limiting out the dinosaurs in Congress like Mitch McConnell and Chuck Grassley, 85% of the country agrees! ... Term limits are overwhelmingly popular

As you noted but don't realize you did, term limits for other people are overwhelmingly popular. My representative is doing a great job, the problem is your representative who won't get with the program.

Source: Congress has a 20% approval rating and yet 80% reelection rates.

5

Mysterious_Table19 t1_ivkvbmn wrote

> If I’m missing anything

Odette Ramos made the point that it would essentially force there to be an all new city council, new council president and new mayor at the same time which would be terrible for institutional memory and would give an enormous amount of power to lobbyists and unelected consultants.

4

RandomRivr t1_ivkz08a wrote

The same Odette Ramos that voted with Nick Mosby to reduce the pension period for council members? The city council demonstrated exactly why we need term limits last night with their vote.

To her point, we would only be forced to replace the entire city council, mayors office, and city council president if every one of those positions wins re-election and serves their full two terms. And there will certainly be long serving advisors and bureaucrats in City Hall to help with the transition and advise new officials, so much of that institutional memory will be retained.

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AdDue1062 t1_ivla9h5 wrote

>it would essentially force there to be an all new city council, new council president and new mayor at the same time which would be terrible for institutional memory

This sounds like the best possible thing that could befall Baltimore.

4

JesusDied4UrCynthias t1_ivlkofx wrote

City council? The people who just gave themselves pensions after 8 years instead of 12? Good.

1

RuinAdventurous1931 t1_ivl4ozv wrote

Nor have I. I live in IL now, and this is what we’ve been working toward. If Baltimore is intent on going in the opposite direction while political leaders to nothing to save residents, so be it.

3

AdDue1062 t1_ivla3k9 wrote

I feel like I've been witnessing a huge misinformation campaign around Question K. Who in their right mind looks at Baltimore city politicians and thinks "yeah, they're mostly doing a great job, let's keep em!?"

3

sllewgh t1_ivm57pd wrote

Question K isn't a referendum on the government, it's deciding whether or not to let voters keep a representative as long as they choose. It will lead to near 100% turnover in city government 8 years from now, which will be a disaster, and we'll indiscriminately force out good people along with bad.

If you think a politician needs to go, vote them out. Not that many people in this city vote, so yours is worth a lot.

2

AdDue1062 t1_ivm7s1g wrote

Baltimore voters are too stupid to be trusted to do the right thing in aggregate. The base of this city is really uneducated and wouldn't know how to vote in their own best interests to save their life.

0

sllewgh t1_ivma0jm wrote

First off, I'm a Baltimore city voter, and go fuck yourself. Secondly, how do you think this is gonna get better people in office if nothing has changed about the voters?

0

The_Waxies_Dargle t1_ivm4pzw wrote

> I’ve never seen such opposition to term limits as I have in this Baltimore sub.

I also find it baffling. It's treated like we're voting for Monty Burns to make a suit from puppies. It's just term limits and it's a 100% valid political option supported by many democrats and/or liberals.

0

bwoods43 t1_ivmuc98 wrote

I can't really tell if you are being disingenuous or just deciding to avoid any information in this thread or on the Internet about Question K in Baltimore.

To suggest that guys who have been in the Senate for decades has anything to do with limiting a mayor to eight years is silly. On top of that, your link of 8 of 10 of the largest cities "have term limits on their city council" is not the entire picture of placing two-term limits on the mayor AND the city council AND the comptroller, which is true only in Houston.

All of your other arguments could be made for instead hiring pigeons to be in charge of the city. I mean, that's something new, right? Maybe just read ANY information related to why this is unnecessary for the city, instead of claiming no other reasons exist.

0

Valstwo t1_ivknzxm wrote

While I agree that Sinclair provides slanted news and Atlas is lame, I don't think the idea of term limits for our city is bad. Just because the question is supported by Sinclair / Smith does not mean it is a bad idea. Somtimes good ideas are supported by those you don't like or respect. #principleoverparty

3

sllewgh t1_ivm4s3a wrote

Ok, but are you gonna make the argument that it's good policy?

1

Valstwo t1_ivqh25o wrote

I am. Baltimore has a long history of corrution, entitlement and one party politics. That is rarely a good combination. Career politicians often have the goal of assuring their power and influence. While there have certainly been good leaders in office for many years, having the same people on city council for decades is not productive, in my opinion.

1

sllewgh t1_ivqilez wrote

If this only removed the bad politicians, it would be great policy. Unfortunately it indiscriminately removes everyone after 8 years.

1

Valstwo t1_ivqj2nz wrote

There are a couple issues with that. First of all, different people's opinions vary on who is considered a good politician. Secondly, the bill allows for 8 years in city council, an additional 8 years as city council president and an additional 8 years as mayor. A truly good politician can stay in office for 24 years! They can also run again for whatever office they had after sitting out for 8 years.

1

sllewgh t1_ivqk2r9 wrote

>There are a couple issues with that. First of all, different people's opinions vary on who is considered a good politician.

That's not really relevant. Whoever you think the good ones are, they're gone. Doesn't matter if we agree on who.

> Secondly, the bill allows for 8 years in city council, an additional 8 years as city council president and an additional 8 years as mayor. A truly good politician can stay in office for 24 years! They can also run again for whatever office they had after sitting out for 8 years.

Not a consolation prize. I'd reelect my councilperson indefinitely, but they wouldn't make a good mayor or president. Now that choice has been taken away.

1

Valstwo t1_ivqku6n wrote

If Baltimore were doing well as a city with politicians who were directly dealing with the issues at hand, I would agree with you. I understand your logic and I respect your position but I just don't agree

1

sllewgh t1_ivqlqci wrote

This new policy will change nothing. If people weren't electing effective leaders before, there's no reason to expect they'll start now.

1

jeffrrw t1_ivmsapb wrote

The patterson park fox is so nice. Love seeing her with a huge rat in her mouth late at night. Always wonder how those fights go down.

3

annieliza963 t1_ivlfyul wrote

By eliminating candidates that people in the city would like to keep electing the only institutionalized knowledge would be held by big monied interest like Sinclair.

2

Less-Idea-9376 t1_ivn5ay7 wrote

Thank You all for supporting Question K!

2

AdDue1062 t1_ivo8rrh wrote

Can't wait for all these jackasses to get washed away.

0

Kooky_Deal9566 t1_ivpgbv2 wrote

Be careful what you wish for. If you think the city is dysfunctional and corrupt now, just wait until 2024, when our entire city government (except for comptroller) is replaced at once and special interests have an even more outsized influence on city elections.

Baltimore did a stupid thing approving question K. There are much better way to impose term limits.

1

AdDue1062 t1_ivpizui wrote

Joke's on you, special interests are way more aligned with my needs than any populist could ever be.

1

FrancisSobotka1514 t1_ivlb7nf wrote

Faux news and the faux channels seem to hate anything democrat .

1

Notpoligenova t1_ivlix9f wrote

It’s Sinclair. Super sketchy company. Run by the same family who run Atlas. Whole thing is scummy as hell.

1

ltong1009 t1_ivlpqav wrote

F@&K Sinclair. I’ll vote for a well thought out term limit proposal with staggered implementation. We don’t need 100% new council members every 8 years. Some degree of institutional knowledge is good. Too much is stagnation. Maybe 12 years on a rotation basis. And F Sinclair again.

1

TheOfficialBrady t1_ivpjlhd wrote

Yah, my kid’s school was on lockdown due to a rabid fox on the grounds. Hence, and I thought this was about the Fox network attacking Baltimore.

1

rockybalBOHa t1_ivk9abl wrote

Either you support term limits or you don't, but term limits are obviously not some radical idea.

−1

Tofu_Bo t1_ivkmoql wrote

I generally support them, but this particular amendment has coterminous terms for the three top offices, which would have the three highest officials simultaneously running for re-election.

If they created an amendment that staggered them or had different lengths of terms, sure, but this one just seems primed for officials checking out to campaign every other term while still on the job. There is an amendment out there I'd support, but it's not this one.

2

NewrytStarcommander t1_ivkhfzz wrote

I know, right? I got downvoted to oblivion. But I support term limits generally, I think a healthy democracy doesn't have career politicians.

0

NewrytStarcommander t1_ivjxh1z wrote

It's not, it's someone either intentionally or with limited information conflating a bunch of different things to try to score a political point.

−30