Timely-Huckleberry73 t1_jaa59sb wrote
I wish books could solve my problem.. I guess in theory the enchiridion of Epictetus has the solution, but is it actually possible in practice? According to Epictetus you could chop off all of someone’s limbs, gouge out their eyes, cut out their tongue and you would have taken nothing from that person. They should be able to be perfectly content living a virtuous, tongueless, eyeless, limbless life. Stoicism is a nice idea I suppose, and something to strive for, but not something that is actually possible for a human being facing extreme hardship.
Next time you meet a limbless, tongueless, eyeless person who happens to feel bad about their lot in life, I do not think you should recommend they read Epictetus in order to solve their problems. I think they would be quite offended lol.
medsmthng OP t1_jaaagyo wrote
An objection to the teachings of stoicism! Not a sound one though!
I don't recall reading something in Epictetus work formed like the exaggeration you put together, an exaggeration aimed at making the advice/notions look ridiculous, maybe stemming from misunderstanding the teachings...
Let's go with the example of the people who suffer the most in this world... How are the teachings of stoicism not beneficial for them to go through life... How would they be offended of something beneficial to them and for the peace of their minds... What do you suggest otherwise in that aspect?! Whatever it is, you'll probably find stoics have mentioned... Heck, you would find some of those people, the ones who want and do live life, living with those teachings/ideas without ever hearing about the word stoicism... Or do you suggest they kill themselves because of their suffering?!
I could address this more and more, but, Let's not... !
Amphy64 t1_jaacdop wrote
What you may not be appreciating is that reconciling with something still means accepting a loss, of having had something taken from you, in some cases. Refusing to accept it can mean insisting on the importance of what was lost. This is a sensitive area for disabled/chronically ill people. I was promised a 'normal' life as a teenager prior to the negligently-performed operation that disabled me. As disabled people in society, we are seen as lesser, as not fully human, as though 'normal', full human life doesn't apply to us, isn't even something we have a right to desire.
Absolutely, they should have every right to kill themselves if they so wish, suicide is an issue of bodily autonomy. Maybe check out philosophical works on this subject. It's not a taboo question. Camus' Absurdism presents suicide as not the answer, but as 'the only really important philosophical question'. I love Camus, I would absolutely put his work in front of a sufferer of chronic illness before any work of stoicism written by some Roman Emperor. Camus contracted TB, he went from fit and sporting to living under the shadow of death, he knows what he's talking about.
Camus was also very politically active. I'd suggest books about political movements and activism before a book of stoicism, too. Marcus Aurelius directly benefited from people being encouraged to accept their lot in life. Pitchforks are really a far preferable problem solving approach in this case.
medsmthng OP t1_jaafoj7 wrote
Seneca, the stoic philosopher is "somewhat" with the idea of suicide, although I disagree with him... and he suffered from serious illness too. Epictetus was disabled and a slave... but they encouraged living a "good" life, for everybody, a life without additional unnecessary suffering
and what you said in the first paragraph is not how they put it... and I couldn't do their philosophy justice by my wording, especially here... They do!
As you read those opinions, it would benefit you to check out stoic literature extensively, and yes, even from the Roman emperor... It's not only me who says so, but many people from all sorts... including the disabled/chronically ill throughout history...
It's something good for you, if you want it!
Timely-Huckleberry73 t1_jaae8pf wrote
My interest in stoicism comes from personal experience. I suffered a neurological injury ten years ago as a young man. As a result I have lost everything (although according to a stoic I have lost nothing). I lost my health, my agency, my independence, my career, my love life, my sex life, my hobbies, my friends, my social status, even my identity. I live in excruciating agony every day, my whole body feels like it is on fire, I have constant migraines, I spend half my time lying in the dark hiding from light and sounds because they are like knives being driven into my eyes and ears respectively. I have severe insomnia and it is not uncommon for me to be awake for three days straight. My eyes, hurt my vision is blurry, everything hurts. My body is failing and malfunctioning in so many ways I would have to write a small book to list them all. I cannot function, I cannot take care of myself, most of the time I can barely read, I can barely follow a tv show, I have not felt human touch in a decade, my life is comprised of (almost) nothing but illness and loss.
I became very interested in stoicism a few years into my injury. I wanted to believe that it was possible to live a eudaemonic life even though I had lost so much. I was passionate about the philosophy and tried to incorporate it as a worldview, every time I found myself feeling sorry for myself or pining for the things I lost and the things of which I was deprived I would stop myself and attempt to focus on virtue. For a while this helped, my outlook on life improved somewhat. But eventually I realized I wasn’t a stoic at all! I was tricking myself! I was focused on virtue for instrumental reasons, not because I truly believed it had intrinsic value. Part of me thought that maybe if I changed my attitude, that I would be able to heal, maybe my health would return, maybe I would be able to work again, to date girls again! However, this was not to be, the illness remained, the pain remained, and it soon became clear that virtue is small comfort to a man starving to death.
I think stoicism would be a great philosophy for most peoples However I think the more a person needs it, the less possible it is to actually practice it. I prefer Aristotle’s conceptualization of virtue ethics, as he accepts that people have fundamental needs to be met before virtue is actually possible.
medsmthng OP t1_jaakrxv wrote
I think you would like some of Schopenhauer's work... said to be painted with something I could, borrowing, call "cheerful" pessimism...
Also, disagreeing with a saying of a stoic doesn't mean the philosophy in general is wrong...
and I don't they promise you'll live a eudaemonic life... instead, I believe they advise one to be "cautious" and to lower their expectations and expect the worst, as not to be so shocked, when the bad things happen... but also, it's not like they encourage inactivity! No, they encourage one to do what he can, what he can control, and to not postpone things, and to have the courage to do what you should do, so as to live life not burdened by the consequences of the opposite of that...
and, Man, from what you mentioned, I couldn't but say, like they say, I feel for you! and for the people who commented... I hope you the best!
and also for who wouldn't read the books I suggested, It gives me the feeling that made me write the post! When people reject what would help them!
Pipe-International t1_jabqldp wrote
Wow.
Your comments read really ableist, privileged and insensitive.
You don’t know what people need to help them.
Suggesting someone with severe disabilities a book that is basically ‘just get over it and be happy - you actually haven’t lost anything’ is rude and entitled.
Books are no guarantee of fixing anything.
medsmthng OP t1_jacvvay wrote
Using labels! and false ones at that! Do you know how many labels apply to what you said...
Learn and try to address ideas as they are, with sound reasoning. Which seems you're failing to do here... Not just you!
Pipe-International t1_jaepyan wrote
Is there a book out there about how not to be rude and elitist? If there is, I recommend it to you.
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