Submitted by Different-Carpet-159 t3_125zvg7 in books
I, a US native, think The Great Gatsby is great because it so perfectly pinpoints American values and ideals, good and bad. I was wondering if I am just Americacentric? Do Brits think Gatsby represents British values? Do Indians think he embodies Indian ideals? Or am I right and you think Gatsby is uniquely American?
Exactly! Gatsby is living the dream but the dream is "do whatever you can to make lota of money so you can get the girl". That's what makes this so American to me: anyone can get whatever they want, especially if all you want dr is superficial, stupid and in the end not what makes you happy.
I'm a Kiwi and to me it's very American. Especially for something set in the 20s. There's no way you could misread Gatsby as a Kiwi
Have to agree, it's really not a universal thing. If Gatsby was a Kiwi he'd be drinking with his mates and walking around without shoes rather than trying to show Daisy all his fancy shirts
Are kiwis not ambitious? Dishonest? Obsessed with status? TBH most of what I know of kiwis is from flight of the Conchords. And yes, they are the antiGatsbys 😄
Historically, not as obsessed with status, certainly not as obsessed as Gatsby was. Those who have and flaunt it are (or, were) seen as a bit foolish. "Tall poppy syndrome" means that people will be cut down to size if they don't stay humble, although that's been changing since the 2010s.
Plus NZ didn't really have anything quite as extravagant as the Jazz Age was in the US.
True, you need a very wealthy society to even have that to aspire to. Remember that Gatsby's mansion was built by a beer tycoon, so he was really just replacing an older generation of wealth.
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I’m not American, have never been to the USA, and have lived most of my life in Europe. I liked the book and can appreciate the characters - there are people like the Buchanans every where, as are elements of Gatsby’s personality. For me it is a tragic story about a man who ruins his life and corrupts himself trying to impress awful people. He wasted his time and talents and eventually his happiness and his life on a completely worthless goal. Daisy is vile and what she seems to represent to Gatsby, the acceptance of her class, was never worth anyone’s spit let alone soul. Delusion and disillusionment too late is a story that can be understood universally.
I do get the impression that the book means something more or different to Americans though. I don’t see the romance or the misled heroism the narrator and apparently many US readers see, nor do I feel any of the glamour that’s supposed to be there. Gatsby throwing his money around gave me second hand embarrassment for him, it was quite uncomfortable to read.
Am American, so I'll jump in and try to explain the "romance and heroism" aspect -- it mostly hinges on how Gatsby reinvents himself from scratch. He started out as a nobody in the middle of nowhere, but a few years later he has a new name and a fancy swingin lifestyle, all of which he conjured out of thin air. He has no history to hold him down; he is that self-made man which seems to be irresistable to the American mindset. Plus, he has a romantic mindset, pursuing his lady love like some kind of poetic hero.
The novel of course puts a spin on this by having him "conjure all of that out of thin air" by cozying up to existing rich people, and then just straight-up crime. He then blows all his riches in the tackiest, dumbest way possible (the party scenes are supposed to be pretty over-the-top and ridiculous). Finally, even with all this in mind, his "lady love" is a good deal worse, which he is completely blind to.
Of course, a large number of people miss the point and enjoy the tacky and ridiculous displays of wealth completely for their own sake; most of the movie versions owe their success to this.
Than you, that’s really interesting, because I think it’s true that I’m culturally trained not to see seeking wealth or status as heroic. People do it of course, but it’s not something you are supposed to draw attention to, so people have to find subtle ( and often hypocritical) ways to flaunt their wealth and power. And heroism is associated with selflessness, being flashy or ambitious is kind of contradictory to the concept as I learned it.
I think you are the second to feel embarrassed or cringy for Gatsby.
Count me the third. And I'm American. It always made me cringe, even when I watched it as a kid. It was embarrassing to see him throw away everything for that horrid girl.
As a Canadian who had to read The Great Gatsby in English class as a teen....I do think it does a great job of depicting American values/ideals. And I did not like the book at all. :P
Also Canadian, also thought it was great at depicting American ideals.
I love the book though.
For the Canadians, what do think are the American ideals?
The American Dream, start at the bottom and work your way up to being a millionaire. Get the hot girl whom you don't really see as a person. Move to a coast (y'all love New York or California)
By the way, we consume a ton of your media and news (it gets boring up here). We're your slightly colder stalkers. We know everything about you.
I knew George Washington before I knew about John A. MacDonald (our first prime minister).
I think your mostly right. Although, on a positive note, women are now as eligible for the American dream, I think. Social media seems to be dominated by women "living the dream".
Whats great about TGG is that it shows for all America's bluster about throwing off the old ways , most rich people are still inheritors of generational wealth, the exact thing America was trying to escape from.
Daisy Buchanan would be at home in a Jane Austen novel. She doesn't marry the American Dreamer, she marries the trust fund kid who never has to work a day in his life.
Also, Roseif you live outside of the urban areas do you think that affects what you think? Is there a city/rural devide?
Yes we have about the same rural/urban divide as the United States (my parents own a farm, I live in a city).
Check our election maps, the countryside is blue (conservative) and the cities are red (liberal) or yellow (NDP or very liberal).
I'm Irish and I found it quite dull and everyone was absolutely awful! I didn't find anything admirable or aspirational in any of their ideals at all, tbh.
Well, to be fair, it wasn't meant to present these people as admirable or something to aspire to. Pretty much the exact opposite. It shows the foolishness, selfishness, and destruction that these people leave in their wake.
Nick, the narrator, is basically the only decent one, as he becomes disgusted with the morals of rich people and leaves New York at the end.
I think it's meh.
I read it recently. Most likely you won't understand my references but I do find eerie contemporary echoes with Nadia Bartel's lockdown parties, Bec Judd's Brighton crime wave and the Micheal Clarke/Jade Yarbrough/Karl Stefanovic kerfuffle.
So, yeah, to some extent Australia resembles The Great Gatsby 100 years later.
Interesting. But ur right I have no idea what u are referring to. Will Google tonight!
For me, Gatsby's longing is more universally human and the American setting just the background.
Indian here, and I think that the Great Gatsby is a tragic love story. Not too keen with the American Dream though
Your comment brought a realization to me; The American dream is money and wealth. The Indian dream is romantic love. Hollywood vs Bollywood. In the early internet bulletin board chat rooms, Indian women where all about comparing romantic love, to things in America, as a way to understand our culture. I didn't have a clue back then, they where trying to find out if I was like the Bollywood hero, if so then I was their man.
I just wanted to thank you for this post. So rare to see American feeling that's something is local, not universal, and this local comes with pros and cons. And yes, Gatsby is not a European character.
Your welcomed! Americans love to call things "this is the great American BLANK" and then just think that is the best book, movie, story or whatever in the world. Mostly, I think, because we are so used to people moving here to live. We forget that there are folks all over the world who don't even think about the USA everyday.
Don't care about it. DNFed it.
I have read it for the purpose of teaching it four out of the last five years and still find new things in it to discover and to talk about. It’s familiarity and otherness are still an essential part of the experience of re-reading it.
Curious, in what country are you teaching?
I liked it, and it is very much of a time and place, the 20s and eastern coast of the USA but I am not sure I would call it the pinpoint of american values and ideals. It is kind of vague social mobility right? Is it more a pinpoint of american values than say To Kill a Mockingbird or Catch 22or even Huckleberry Finn (I liked these much better...). Or Grapes of Wrath? (it is very earnest, very committed, and not enjoyable but it is certainly strong and fluent and a really great portrayal of America as a society in turmoil...)
A waste of time
I was disappointed when I read it, not because I disliked it, but because it didn't live up to my expectations based on what people said about it. I think it depicts American values well, though I don't know if my opinion is valid as I'm not American. The plot was decent but the book itself could have been way better. I think some scenes could and should have had more emotional impact, but they didn't. I didn't feel any emotion reading it and that's why the book didn't impact me at all. Decent book, but definitely not the best book of American literature.
UK: It's definitely American values, which is still interesting. I felt I didn't really get it (read when my sister was studying it), because it all seemed too obvious, money, all awful vulgar people, hypocrisy, Ok, which has often been how I feel about American writers with the exception of Henry James. We read Death of a Salesman in school which is perhaps a tad more nuanced but to me similarly puzzling, I don't have a lot of sympathy for either 'tragic hero', to me both simply behave badly to inexplicable ends. My sister does like American lit...but has always been materialistic and is working on moving to the US! What I don't really get is it tends not to feel like the pursuit of these values is questioned enough, Gatsby is far from really outside them himself. It is low class here to be seen to throw money around, but our aristos have tended to be considered particular cheapskates even next to continental European equivalents (France emphasises money used to show artistic/aesthetic good taste more).
I did get a lot more out of Edith Wharton's The House of Mirth, which shows the emergence of new, American values, and whose heroine while a monster of materialism in a lot of ways is shown to have been influenced by her upbringing and have better impulses, and there's a more critical lower class perspective. My new little rabbit is named Lily for her heroine and Trollope's Lily Dale (Wharton's bad girl Lily turns out to suit her best). Do think it shows that Wharton would go on to have a strong connection to France, though (FSL speaker myself - consider French values to have remained closer to those we're losing through Americanisation). Lily's aesthetic desire for the beautiful and very expensive may even make more sense in that context than it would in an English one, you only have to compare our palaces to Versailles (Wharton was interested in interior design. I do think Americans still care much more than us about it).
About to go on a trip. Maybe I will download House of Mirth to read.
I am American but I do have friends from other countries, and I think that's a great question. As far as I can tell, Gatsby is much closer to American values or what America represents to people in other countries where they feel weighed down by societal rules and structures (e.g., caste system) that do not provide them a way to escape out of their position in life and realize their dreams.
Yeah I think you misread the book….the whole point is that we imagine we have so much social mobility in the US but it’s not really true, it’s an illusion. Gatsby will never be truly accepted by the upper class.
Yes, that is the bad part of the American trait never to be satisfied. No matter how much Gatsby had, he was never happy. Everything he did he did to impress Daisy and I wonder what would have happened if theyvwould have run off together. Probably drive each other crazy and get divorced after 2 years :)
You definitely make it sound all positive lol
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Read it in high school and enjoyed it. Years later read The Rum Diaries by Hunter S Thompson and I felt like it was the same writing. Turns out Hunter S Thompson often used to type out the Great Gatsby from start to finish to make himself a better writer...
Cool fact! Love HST and he had a great take on the grotesque nature of the American Dream and on mainstream American values. We can debate whether he should be counted as a commentary writer, or a fiction writer or a reporter (see a previous comment on purpose of fiction writer)
Personally I LOVE the great Gatsby (New Zealander) Always has been and always will be my favourite work of literature!
Read it years ago and don't remember much from it. I see I rated it 3 stars on Goodreads, so I considered it nothing special at the time. I feel that is about accurate for a book that evokes nothing from me years later.
In Poland we have a novel "The Doll" which is often compare to Great Gatsby. I read them both although I didn't see resemblance and I wasn't really impressed by GG.
I'm Portuguese, I can get the themes about the American Dream and American values but, there are some universal themes there, about love and greed and wanting to feel relevant, these feelings are common to everyone but they take on different shapes in different cultures.
Btw it's one of the few cases I thought the movie was better than the book. I bought the book in a rush because I was going to watch the movie and I wanted to read the book first, I thought the book was ok but the movie is a work of art.
Simps in every country really. But a rich simp, that sort of a uniquely modern fantasy character. Sure you can find examples but as an archetype very much American as designed
I could not care less what the message of the book is. Fiction writers are first and foremost crafters and artists of language, not social commentators. Anywho, Fitzgerald's prose flows quite nicely.
What? Dickens, Steinbeck, Tolstoy, Achibe, Toni Morrison were all social commentators as much as wordsmith. Fitzgerald may have been less concerned with commentary than some, but he definitely had a viewpoint.
octaviosiepi t1_je74jjn wrote
I am from Argentina and read it in english last year. I really liked it, Scott Fitzgerald certainly had one of the most beautiful prose of his generation. The way he describes the city, the docks or when he talks about the midwest during winter in one of the last chapters, really powerful images. It is one of those books in which the plot isn't really the main course though. The story itself is pretty simple, it is the way it is told and the character study that makes it captivating. It is obviously very critical of the vapidness and materialism of the roaring 20's but it's never heavyhanded, even Gatsby you can't help but feel a little sorry about him, he's apparently living the dream, but behind the façade he's really insecure and lonely.