I don’t like Giovanni from Giovanni’s Room (by James Baldwin)

Submitted by West_b0und t3_11xtamg in books

For me, this line of dialogue:

“Oh women! There is no need, thank heaven, to have an opinion about women. Women are like water. They are tempting like that, and they can be that treacherous, and they can seem to be that bottomless, you know?— and they can be that shallow. And that dirty…. I perhaps don’t like women very much , that is true. That hasn’t stopped me from making love to many and loving one or two. But most of the time— most of the time make love only with the body.”

And this:

“Oh, well, … these absurd women running around today, full of ideas and nonsense, and thinking themselves equal to men… they need to be beaten half to death so that they can find out who rules the world.”

…really stopped me from rooting for him. I get that Giovanni’s Room revolves around the tragic romance between him and David (the MC), and I do think what happens to him in the end is horrible, but his misogynistic ideas were personally a HUGE turn-off. Admittedly, the book is filled with flawed, even despicable characters (Guillaume can choke), but like… c’mon, I got totally blindsided. :((

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Andjhostet t1_jd54n9s wrote

Why do people think everything is binary? People are not good people or bad people. They are just... People. With good and bad qualities. Humans are complex. The fact that you are just like "ope they did something I don't like, I'm not cheering for them anymore" is pretty concerning to me and very bizarre.

This post is perfectly emblematic of a trend I've been seeing a lot lately. People HAVE to categorize characters into either good or bad and that's just not how life works. It's quite concerning, and probably a symptom of the increasing tribalism and polarization of society.

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masterofunfucking t1_jd5ejk4 wrote

Been seeing that lately whenever people try to discuss Lolita. Turns into a flame war where people who support it are enablers and like that shit and people who don’t are better? for some reason or another

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senoritaraquelita t1_jd92pz5 wrote

One can appreciate the complexity of a character and ultimately decide to like them or dislike them. I personally come down pretty neutral on the character of Giovanni - I definitely think he is misogynistic but that a lot of that is a result of the society he was brought up in as well as his jealousy and pain. I do however HATE David - just make one decision man, just one!!! - but I still appreciate that he’s a well written character.

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West_b0und OP t1_jd59n9l wrote

I’m sorry you feel that way, but as a woman, I’m perfectly within the right to dislike characters who insult my gender. It’s not that I think people don’t have a mix of good and bad qualities— it’s that this bad quality in particular was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. To be sure, Giovanni has good qualities (he’s eloquent, satirical, intelligent, a good read of people, etc), but his bad ones (he’s volatile, manipulative, violent, misogynistic, etc) don’t do him any favors.

Also LOL at the tribalism/polarization of society bit. It’s not that deep. People can have opinions.

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Andjhostet t1_jd5fxb8 wrote

Ok but why does the camel's back have to break? You are completely missing my point. You don't have to "cheer" for anybody. You can be invested in a character without having to cheer for them or against them.

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West_b0und OP t1_jd5g7yg wrote

Did I ever say otherwise? I’m literally just saying that I can dislike characters if I want to, regardless of whether I’m invested in them or not.

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RitzySchnitzel t1_jd5f2so wrote

It's been awhile since I read Giovanni's Room, but I'll give my take. Giovanni doesn't hate women, he hates heteronormativity. And in this sense, his comments aren't attacking women but are instead underhanded jabs at David's perceived bisexual fence-sitting. His underlying emotions can be translated as "Can't you see we don't need women?!? We just need each other! Please, David...Just accept that you're gay."

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West_b0und OP t1_jd5gl7n wrote

Ahh, that’s a thought that never occurred to me before. Contextually, that does make sense… I’m pretty sure he makes the misogynistic comments I was complaining about in the middle of a conversation about Hella. I suppose he was criticizing David’s willingness to marry her, despite also being with him?

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RitzySchnitzel t1_jd5luma wrote

Yeah, my recollection is that Giovanni attempts to be blasé about David's relationship with Hella, but deep down he is incredibly jealous and possessive. This is fueled not only by his insistence that one is either gay or straight, no in-between, but also his status as "the other woman." No doubt, Giovanni is a very flawed and complex character. But while his comments are certainly misogynistic, I think his crime is bisexual erasure, not true-blue misogyny.

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West_b0und OP t1_jd5pqav wrote

You’ve convinced me. While I don’t approve of the content of his comments, now that I understand WHY he said them a little better, I think I can give him more of the benefit of a doubt. If my partner more or less told me that he prefers to be with someone else, despite the very intimate nature of our intimate relationship, I would also be pissed… and probably would not speak very well of them.

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creept t1_jd4stwe wrote

This is honestly one of the turn offs of reading mid-century literature. I don’t think Baldwin was a misogynist himself (or at least I don’t know about it) but it was such an enormous part of mid-century culture that it’s in virtually every book from the period not written by women. And frankly probably many of those too, if they’re writing about the culture they’re living in. It’s similar to how if you decide to read boys’ literature from the 1890s, you’re absolutely going to encounter fairly extreme racism and imperialism.

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[deleted] t1_jd5aeqv wrote

Why do we have to root for or like every character?

It’s a beautifully written piece of queer literature that has an imperfect main character. I don’t have to agree with Giovanni’s thoughts to find that interesting, appreciate what Baldwin was writing, or even enjoy the text. It’s worthy of discussing those attitudes is a broader context, but it would be vastly uninteresting if characters didn’t have major flaws.

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West_b0und OP t1_jd5bcvz wrote

Certainly. The book is very well written, and I do appreciate it for all the reasons you stated. However, while most of the characters would not be as interesting as they are without their flaws, certain flaws are objectively distasteful, even if they are well-executed. That’s what I was aiming to express in my original post.

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mendizabal1 t1_jd5f2cb wrote

Well, he's not likeable. Neither is David.

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West_b0und OP t1_jd5gctf wrote

Mmhmm. I know. I just found this particular trait especially unlikable. 🤷‍♀️

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senoritaraquelita t1_jd90wvh wrote

I think that Giovanni is a complex and flawed character who certainly expresses misogynistic views. But I think that Baldwin adds this not to perpetuate these views but to develop the character and explore the complex layers of oppression. Giovanni suffers a certain level of oppression due to his sexuality and class. However, he also benefits from a certain amount of privilege because he is a man. Instead of finding solidarity with women who are also oppressed, he exerts the small amount of power he has by asserting his superiority to women. I think this feeling of resentment towards women is amplified by his jealousy, as romantic relationship between men and women are seen as valid while any relationship he has with a man is seen as shameful and loveless. I think his resentment is misplaced but it is also understandable given the circumstances.

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senoritaraquelita t1_jd91fiq wrote

I still found Giovanni ~more~ likable than David. At least he takes a stand for something and is honest about his intentions while David just flops around and let’s things happen and then acts surprised when they happen. But I don’t think Baldwin’s intent was to write likable characters but to write interesting characters and I definitely think he succeeded there.

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West_b0und OP t1_jd93zyj wrote

I agree, he definitely succeeded on that front.

David as a character is so… stagnant, which is a trait I normally wouldn’t judge him for were it not for his attitude towards Giovanni. You’ve nailed his general character arc (lol)— like, literally ALL he does is flop around, ignoring what needs to be done until the thing gets done for him. In addition, while I do feel some sympathy for his struggles with his sexuality, the way he goes about addressing those struggles… is very deficient, to say the least. Unlike him, Giovanni, for all his flaws, knows when to act (something I admire).

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West_b0und OP t1_jd956yp wrote

Mmmm. I also thought that his beliefs about women may have something to do with losing his child as a younger man, back when he was with a woman. If his sexuality was repressed while he was with her (now that I think about it, while he mentions that his partner was good to him, he only says that she loved him, not the other way around), once he’d left her, it must’ve occurred to him that he could be with whoever he wanted. And he wanted men like David.

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noodledoodledoo t1_jd4qv9o wrote

I find this sort of thing can ruin a book for me too! I don't really care if it's "realistic for the character" like some people like to say in response to these complaints, if it's unpleasant to read then I'm not having fun and I'd rather avoid it 🤷‍♀️

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senoritaraquelita t1_jd91vqf wrote

I mean, how can a writer write about misogyny and the negative effects of heteronormativity without depicting misogynistic characters?

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noodledoodledoo t1_jdcg4hn wrote

I mean I'm not saying it's wrong or that people shouldn't write it or read it, I'm saying that sometimes I don't want to read it right now.

And I'm sick of people acting like I'm taking a moral stance when I just occasionally just don't want to read about hate directed at myself. When I ask for a book rec without themes of misogyny I'm tired of people acting like I want to ban misogynistic characters. I just want to have fun without being reminded of real world misogyny sometimes. If I want an escapist fantasy from the real world sometimes misogyny is what I want to escape from. If I want to read a book with misogynistic characters or themes I can pick up almost any book.

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