Finished Les Mis and just need to brain dump my thoughts [Spoilers, of course]

Submitted by ChildhoodSadd t3_121zyzw in books

It is difficult to not read and think without my current moral set in 2023, but above all, I just gotta say that I think Marius is a little bitch.

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Don't get me wrong, by all means, this book is an absolute masterpiece. I won't pretend I have any type of literary quality close to even being that of a 100th of Victor Hugo's. I had to just accept that even with all of the footnotes I will simply not understand some of his references. Also, the personality traits and arcs were entirely believable and realistic in my eyes, (except maybe one thing with Cosette)

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Reasons I think Marius is a little bitch:

  • Basically abandons his loving grandfather to be an edgy Napoleon supporter.
  • Instead of being "a man" and talking to Cosette and her father, or interacting in any way other than staring, he hides from Jean and then decides to freaking stalk Cosette home so he can find out where she lives
    • I understand people didn't have phones back then, but surely this would still have been creepy behavior, no? Dobler-Dohmer theory, perhaps?
    • It's great writing, I think a lot of guys have stories where they did something outlandish and not very appropriate because they believed they were in love. Most cases like this DO NOT END WELL however
  • Basically writes a letter to Cosette that says "if you don't love me enough to stay with me then I'm going to go kill myself"
    • I get it, romantic, truly in love, whatever, It's disgusting.
  • Cosette is like 14 and he's 19. I know, I know, my 21st century values. I have a hard time parting with this thought though.
  • He can't even be courageous enough to tell Jean Valjean to fuck off. He has to be a huge pussy about it and slowly move his furniture away
  • The scene with Thenardier was weird but believable. I can see someone getting upset and throwing cash in the heat of the moment (especially if you were just recently blessed with, basically millions. I get he had that "debt" as well... Still, he should've just punched him. For someone in France I can see "Thenardier went to the Americas" to be a sigh of relief. Oh he's not in France anymore! But that he used this money to become a slave trader. This left such a weird taste in my mouth. It felt like a big theme in this book was to do good and keep doing good. What if "doing good" means enabling a slave trader by not just killing the guy already. I don't know. That's what's books are for though, right? To make you think?
  • Jean Valjean only stole a piece of bread you mother fucker!!! You saw how good he was CONSTANTLY
    • I tried to tell myself that I view things differently and tried to pretend society perhaps viewed criminals back then in the way I would view a murder-suspect. This helped but only so much. I wouldn't let a murder suspect into my home and passive-aggressively remove his stuff hoping he'd "take a hint" and leave
  • His very very final arc did redeem him a bit. But too late!! (I know that's the tragedy of it all, I get it)

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Cosette

  • I 100% understand that women have been repressed throughout much of history, and more-so then than many of us are used to now. For Cosette to basically "shut up and color" through much of the issues, and especially the fact that all she went through, AND that she's only 14, I put absolutely no ill-judgment towards her. Incredible writing, completely believable. She is pure innocence.
  • The one thing that bothered me was that Hugo went out of his way to basically write that Cosette DID forget about Jeal ValJean to some extent. She was caught up in the minutiae or however he described it. This, in my opinion, although a rarity, felt like it was just written to make the story more tragic. I cannot believe Cosette could just forget him just like that.
    • Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's just how weddings were. The "property" is transferred from dad to husband and everyone just forgets everyone. I just have a hard time believing this.

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Those thoughts apart, holy shit were the parallels in this book so freaking good. The comparison of Valjean being in a prison again when he ended up with the (sorry for my ignorance I can't remember what the organization is called) insanely strict religious, women's only place, was so good. The parallels between Valjean, only following his duty, with Javert, only following his duty. SO GOOD. I thought for sure the "pay it forward" from the bishop, to Jean, was going to pass on to Javert. I had to read the suicide sentence four times in a row it threw me off so well.

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I had to put the book down just to think so many times.

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One thing I haven't been able to sort out in my mind though, is that I wish Jean just lied and kept his identity from everyone. Everyone would have been better off, that would have been the "good thing", right? But of course he reveals that it's his duty to always do what's right. But what was he referring to? Not lying? He lied to Cosette her entire life. He lied throughout the story to do "what was right", didn't he? He even got a nun to lie for the first time in her life, for his protection. Which of course the reader believes to be what was right....

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Anyway I could probably ramble on for a very long time. Gavroche was the man. His death was such a moving scene. I didn't like Hugo's writing style and was very close to putting the book down after the first 50 or so pages... I am glad I stuck with it.

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Comments

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spotted-cat t1_jdphupr wrote

All I have to say is that I’m disappointed that your review does not mention Eponine even once who has the most interesting and tragic story of all the characters imo.

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The__Imp t1_jdqn1ua wrote

Poor Eponine. She has the Thernadiers for parents. She doesn’t even have a transformative supporter figure. And yet she is still able to become a good person. Her action to stop her dad from robbing the house shows true selfless love. It wouldn’t have hurt her personally. In fact if it scared Cosette away it could have benefitted her. But it would have hurt Marius. And she takes her father’s wrath to do it.

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ChildhoodSadd OP t1_jdsfrmx wrote

That's true! Fantine was pretty dang tragic as well. Right before I posted this I actually watched the movie with Hugh Jackman and was frustrated with how on the nose Eponine's love for Marius was. The book did such a good job making the reader question her motivations and come to the conclusion themselves that she is in love with Marius.

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I should have added Eponine's death to Marius' "little bitch section" because, if I'm remembering right, despite Eponine dying, Marius doesn't even hear her confess her love to him while she's bleeding out from sacrificing herself for him. He's too focused on Cosette's letter. Damn, you are right, that is truly tragic

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SagebrushandSeafoam t1_jdpdras wrote

I think you're right that Marius, Cosette, and in fact every character in the book is not meant to be a portrait of an unerring person, just a person, flawed and pitiful. Marius and Cosette are young, immature, selfish, and silly. Marius doesn't know any better way to get close to Cosette, so he does what he does.

As for Jean Valjean's decision to reveal his identity, it is to save an innocent man going to prison for his (Valjean's) crimes. In the musical Valjean expresses this sentiment as, "Can I condemn this man to slavery?" and "If I speak, I am condemned. If I stay silent, I am damned." If you haven't listened to the musical (the Original Broadway Cast recording), absolutely do; obviously it greatly condenses the story and changes a few things, but I think it captures the book actually exceptionally well. I think it will prove a great chaser to the book.

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ChildhoodSadd OP t1_jdsgpls wrote

Oh sorry, I should have been more clear! I completely understand the part you are referring to. I absolutely loved (maybe loved is the wrong word, but I couldn't put the put down!) reading his internal struggle in his dark room over this. I haven't seen the Broadway cast yet, just watched the 2012 movie and it felt like everything went so quick haha.

I am referring to the end portion. Maybe my sense of time was off, but basically it seemed like Jean Valjean didn't want to keep being Fauchelevent (spelling?) even though it was a perfect identity. So instead he confessed who he was to Marius and moved away until his sadness brought him to death's door. I just don't completely understand the consistency in logic

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SagebrushandSeafoam t1_jdsifgy wrote

It's been a while since I read it, but as I recall he was confident someone would figure out his identity eventually, and then it would bring (what he saw as) unbearable social disgrace on Cosette (and Marius). I also think Valjean's whole perspective was, 'A life with me is forever a life on the run. So I have one mission: Get Cosette to the point where she doesn't have to be with me anymore.' Once that was achieved, I think his whole perspective didn't even really stop to consider, 'Can I stick around?' The idea was, 'She is unburdened of me, now I can disappear.'

The 2012 film had its strengths, but it is not the same experience at all as the Broadway musical. But I'm not suggesting you watch the musical (though, I mean, definitely do if you get the chance), I'm just suggesting you listen to it (specifically, the Original Broadway Cast recording). You already know the story, so you should be able to follow along pretty easily. If you find you enjoy it, then I suggest getting your hands on the filmed 25th Anniversary Les Misérables in Concert, where much of the original cast partially acts out the musical while singing it.

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ChildhoodSadd OP t1_jdskwqq wrote

This makes sense, it really does. I also think Valjean wasn't aware Javert had committed suicide at that point, just that for some reason he let him go. He could have really still believed he was a threat to her way of life.

I didn't even think to just listen to it! I see it's on spotify and will check it out, thanks!

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The__Imp t1_jdqmm1n wrote

I love that you specified the broadway version over say the most recent movie. They certainly sacrifice song quality for emotion.

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BuletteProof t1_jdp2818 wrote

I've read Les Mis three times and am due for a reread. Love it to bits. Marius is absolutely a little bitch. No idea if it's intentional or not, nor do I care. The man's a rat bastard.

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ChildhoodSadd OP t1_jdsgu78 wrote

Whenever I post on Reddit I get such anxiety I am going to say something wrong and come back to comments calling me an asshole ^^;

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Your comment makes me happy :)

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edith_piaf_ t1_jdpsf0d wrote

Cosette's forgetting Valjean bothered me too.. It just seemed so far-fetched

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cricket73646 t1_jdood8x wrote

JVJ had to admit it was him to keep with the idea that he was a good person who did the right thing. Even when he lies to Cosette, he is only trying to protect her.

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ChildhoodSadd OP t1_jdshc08 wrote

> Even when he lies to Cosette, he is only trying to protect her.

Hmm perhaps he believed since now that she married Cosette, he didn't need to protect her, so he didn't lie about his identity anymore?

I suppose this makes sense. It's not the "right" thing, but it makes sense in his mind it is. He truly believed he wasn't wanted anymore, and so he left. He just went too far on the self-denial route, but that's quite in character for him

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judyblue_ t1_jdpkwxy wrote

My mother taught me the word "milquetoast" when I was a child, because that's how she felt about Marius. When I read it myself I realized how perfectly accurate her description is.

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Paperfoldingfractal t1_jdqardv wrote

Possibly; however, nothing prepared me for Marius' unbelievable badass arrival at the barricade! Here's this boy, moping, unable to make a decision about anything, upon arriving at the barricade sees Enjolras about to get bayonetted at one end of the barricade and Gavroche similarly at the other end. In one motion Marius pulls out two duelling pistols (fisticuffs) Javert(!) gave him 100 pages ago for something completely different and, guns akimbo, kills the two soldiers threatening his friends.

I loved it, it just comes completely out of nowhere and is almost anachronistic in that I'd expect that out of an 80s action movie. If a remake included it, it would be ridiculed as making Marius an action hero.

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ZeMastor t1_jds4kjo wrote

...but his arrival at the barricades had nothing to do with The Cause. At least the ABC's were fighting for something they believed in- a new Republic. Marius wasn't fighting for anything, or to make France a kinder, gentler democracy someday. He was depressed that the girl he was interested in was moving to England and he couldn't follow her (not that he'd introduced himself to her guardian like civilized people did back then). And Grandpa G wouldn't approve of their marriage. So he was mulling over a death wish. he wanted to die quickly, and he got this message that his "friends" were waiting for him at the barricades.

What he was doing was "suicide by cop" or in this case, getting involved in a shooting match against gov't troops. He took two lives for a cause that meant nothing to him. Not badass or heroic at all.

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ChildhoodSadd OP t1_jdshp32 wrote

Your comment just made me cringe more when I think back about him getting ready to blow himself and everyone up. There were definitely some dark motivations in there.

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Man this book is good.

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PhotographHuge1007 t1_jdoe9vo wrote

Full on respect for reading the book.....I've relied on the musical......

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ChildhoodSadd OP t1_jdsjhln wrote

I haven't seen the Broadway one, I will have to check it out, but I highly recommend the book hehe.

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I watched the 2012 movie with Hugh Jackman, and it felt so so so fast to me. Hundreds of pages and arcs condensed into 2 minutes of scene time hurt my heart. It also completely missed a side of JV in the book. In the book he has this deep, dark, terrifying, and threatening persona he brings out when needed. The movie has a fight scene with Javert where JV runs away, in the book he just straight up terrifies Javert.

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ZeMastor t1_jds12dc wrote

Whoa!!! This looks like a great and controversial posting!

  1. Marius was apolitical, and Grandpa G was somewhat neutral but knew how to survive no matter which faction was in power. He hated Napoleon, and disowned his son-in-law (Marius' Dad), so Marius grew up not knowing a thing about Daddy. That changed, and Marius went into hero-worship mode (for Daddy), and even absorbing Daddy's Bonapartist beliefs at a time when it was all irrelevant (Napoleon already died). The hilarious part was that Marius was so ignorant that he didn't even know who the current King was, and shouted "Down with Louis XVIII, that pig!" when Louis was also dead.
  2. No argument there. He was a creepy stalker and Valjean was right to be annoyed and suspected him of being a police spy. Marius wasn't raised by wolves. He should have known better and behaved like any well-brought up young man. Introduce himself to the girl's guardian and ASK to speak to her!
  3. The Letter under the Rock. LOL. I fail to see how Cosette even got through reading it. Most of it didn't even sound like it was about her, just some vague metaphysical musings. Dude can't write a love letter worth a damn.
  4. I think she was 15. And she was also attracting the attention of that handsome lancer, Theodule Gillenormand. I believe in those times, young men could court a girl (in her home, and with permission from her guardians) and eventually a marriage could be planned out in a few years.
  5. I don't get the reference? What happened here?
  6. That bothered the F out of me too. Marius was being a fool, so obsessed with his debt to Thenn that he delayed in helping "his" girl's guardian when the older man was trapped in a tenement by thugs. And throwing all that money at Thenn in the end, so he can ruin the lives of black people in America by being a slave trader. Knowing that Victor Hugo was anti-slavery, I never quite understood why Thenn would have such a happy ending... has a good chunk of change, and maybe 30 years of prosperity on the backs of enslaved people. He should have drowned on the voyage to America, or gotten killed in a slave revolt.
  7. What annoys me is that Marius let his imagination get the best of him, but we have to admit that Valjean never tried to clarify the situation. He just bowed to Marius' authority as Cosette's hubby and allowed them to ghost him.
  8. How wonderful it was that Valjean reconciled with Marius and Cosette, 30 seconds before dying! And he could have been happier for MONTHS and part of Cosette's life if Marius wasn't such a self-righteous d-bag! Valjean stole bread decades ago. Marius was technically a traitor, ready to blow himself and a boatload of soldiers and fellow rebels with dynamite for a cause that he didn't even believe in!

Other musings...

Maybe Cosette would have been better off married to Theodule.

You're right about marriage being a "transfer of property" in those times, so whatever Marius said, she pretty much had to do. Victor Hugo tried to make them ghosting Valjean as palatable as possible... "we mustn't blame these children. They were young and deeply in love" etc.

Marius even offered to use Grandpa G's influence to GET VALJEAN A PARDON. That almost redeemed him! But Valjean turned it down, thinking it was better if society thought he was dead, etc. and once an ember of suspicion (on Marius' part) went out of control, Valjean was ghosted and more miserable than ever. SHOULD HAVE ACCEPTED THE OFFER OF A PARDON! Can you imagine how happy all their lives could have been in Valjean's final months?

edit: clarified son-in-law and not son.

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ChildhoodSadd OP t1_jdsikoq wrote

I am so glad I posted here. I am really enjoying the discussion. You make some very good insights too!

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for #5, I am just referring to how JV had his own place at Marius and Cosette's house that Marius had agreed to allow him to visit each afternoon. Instead of ever talking to JV however, Marius has JV's furniture slowly moved out of the room. He makes sure the fire isn't lit anymore either. It was just so freaking passive-aggressive

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Magalahe t1_jdqaz17 wrote

read it in 10th grade, saw the musical right after, been a fan of the music ever since.

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BitPoet t1_jdqzn61 wrote

I think you're reading Marius paying Thermadier to go away wrong. Thermadier was, and will always be, scum. From the battlefield looter to when he first shows up to him leaving for America. No money can change who he is.

Jean ValJean being given the candlesticks at just the right point and in the right way in his life to make a difference is really the only part of redemption in the book.

Javert committing suicide at the end was simply because he could no longer pretend that Jean ValJean was utterly an purely good. Which would make him the bad guy. It destroys his worldview so badly that the only way (at the moment) he can resolve it is to die.

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lucsky75 t1_jdoremn wrote

Ok, it's the second fucking time I have see this in the past few weeks in that subreddit and it irks me to no end. It's called "Les Miserables", not "Les Mis" or whatever, you fucking savages.

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Rozzie_Rozz t1_jdq7z6v wrote

Ok, I hope this is this is the last fucking time I have to see this in this subreddit. It irks me to no end. It’s called “Les Misérables”, not “Les Miserables” or whatever, you fucking philistine.

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ChildhoodSadd OP t1_jdsk2n4 wrote

Haha, my apologies. I suggest you don't look at r/lesmis

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Reminds me of when I went to check it out from the library, I asked "Do you have Les Misérables unabridged here?" in my American accent (we are both in and from America). She retorted, "oh, you mean, LECH MICHZZERABLEHHH??" .. yes, I think we both know I did...

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lucsky75 t1_jdssjy8 wrote

Taken with grace and humor, as I hoped it would be. I bow before your elegance :)

But I still don't know if "Les Mis" is a real thing, collectively used to, let's say not butcher the original title too much out of courtesy. Please enlighten me.

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