Donna Tartt and John Irving

Submitted by shnoogle111 t3_123lcmp in books

I very recently read The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt. I found the first 100 or so page is to be some of the most engaging writing I’ve read in recent years. However, in my opinion, from there on, it becomes a prime example of why good editing is important. I feel it was sprawling, meandering and messy, but not in a good way. I suppose these are also attributes shared with life, so I can appreciate the parallels. I just found myself not caring about the characters at all. Generally, I am a big fan of the Bildungsroman. It reminded me a little bit of the writing of John Irving, and in particular, the book A Prayer for Owen Meany. I know that both writers are very Dickensian in style. However, I feel that Irving pulled off a much better example of the coming of age story in his book. I think it is interesting, how some books reputation change over time, some books may be universally claimed at the time of publication, but do not age well, and conversely, some may be panned, but then history may present them in a better light. I feel that The Goldfinch may end up being an example of the former. Just curious how you all felt, and if you’ve also read works by both authors, if you felt any similarities. All of that said, this is obviously only my opinion, and incredibly subjective in nature.

Happy reading!

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kit_leggings t1_jdvb55e wrote

There's a really good 400 page novel buried in there somewhere, but I'm not exactly sure which parts comprise it.

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shnoogle111 OP t1_jdvbgfd wrote

Agreed. I found certain passages enthralling and others meandering, but it was maybe a 50/50 split. I think in writing there is sometimes a hesitancy for editors to edit too much on an author that has displayed some level of critical merit or general popularity.

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TheChocolateMelted t1_jdvar6g wrote

Tartt utterly impressed me with The Secret History. However, she left me more disappointed than possibly ever before with The Little Friend. The two books are extremely different in tone, topic, themes, language, character (and quality) in a way that Irving hasn't demonstrated in what I've read of him. The disappointment from The Little Friend has largely kept me from The Goldfinch thus far, but I haven't written it off completely.

I've found that Irving has too little variety in the themes or possibly the emotions his novels draw up. I'll happily defend Until I Find You, but none of his other novels have really blown me away (with the exception of a particular episode and the follow up in The World According to Garp). Oddly, I found that Garp lacked an overall focus and headed in the direction of being 'sprawling and meandering' to some extent, although I'd stop short of describing it as 'messy'. It didn't feel like Irving was building up to a specific conclusion throughout the story, while I've definitely seen that, to at least some extent, in his others.

Would definitely turn to Irving for coming-of-age novels though. For better or worse, he seems to be very much in his element there.

Irving's latest is The Last Chairlift. Haven't read it, but geez, is there a less intriguing title possible?

Oddly, one book I associate with the work of Tartt (The Secret History and the academic world it creates) and Irving (probably more for The Cider House Rules than any other) is Stoner by John Williams. It had a drastic critical reevaluation a few decades after it was published. Might be one for you?

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lydiardbell t1_jdvekwe wrote

Most people who love both The Secret History and The Goldfinch agree with you about Little Friend, for what it's worth. I can see why people call Goldfinch meandering, but if you don't mind slow pacing or characters doing things you wouldn't (and don't have a problem with the idea of digressions about art and antiques similar to TSH's digressions about the classics) I don't think you'll have too much to worry about.

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shnoogle111 OP t1_jdvb3sx wrote

Ohhh Stoner! I actually read that. Loved it.

As for Irving I do agree with your assessment. It can feel like reading the same book over and over with the same motifs. I think that all writing in fiction is in someway and in varying levels inherently autobiographical, however, I think he may lean into his experience is too much if that makes sense?

All that said, I found Owen Meany to be one of my favorite pieces of fiction, but after reading that I felt overwhelmed by the rest. I imagine it may be a similar experience, regardless, of which work of his you start with. Like you said, he has a very distinct style that he rarely deviates from.

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dankpoots t1_jdwjath wrote

I've never read The Goldfinch, but I wanted to comment because I find your interpretation of Owen as a coming of age story to be really intriguing. I just reread it and found it to be almost the opposite of this - while the protagonist does age as the story progresses, he is mentally and emotionally mired in an almost perpetual childhood or adolescence. I think that's what is meant to be symbolized by his virginity, sexlessness and lack of ability to move past traumatic events in his life. I think Cider House is a better example of the true Bildungsroman. This isn't to smear Owen, though. It is one of my favorite novels and I've read it many times since first being assigned it in English lit.

I LOVE John Irving, and while I have to agree with the commenter who says the themes and emotions in his novels can be repetitive, I don't think it's inevitably a bad thing for a novelist to have a "schtick."

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shnoogle111 OP t1_jdwkm3u wrote

For sure! I think I’d classify it as a Bildungsroman because even though he does stay mired in the past, it does detail his psychological and moral changes as he grows. I think the experiences of growing up during the Vietnam War inform his views towards modern politics and international affairs. All that said, I think you are spot on that he does remain stuck in the past. I think that may be indicative of many of the Vietnam War generation who were so closely affected. And oh I loved Cider House! Probably my second favorite after Owen Meany. All that said, I read Owen Meany in the summer in between high school and college, and I feel it may be impossible to separate my interpretation from the specific time in my life I read it.

And yeah Irving does have a ‘a thick’ so to speak, but I think it slightly changes as he ages and perhaps comes to terms with those details of his life. It’s interesting that like John from Owen Meany, he also moved to Canada and has strong feelings towards his government. I suppose life can sometimes imitate art!

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Sasebo_Girl_757 t1_je1nfoc wrote

Started "The Goldfinch" with enthusiasm then did not finish it. I got to the point where I didn't care about the any of the characters anymore and was getting weary of MC's obsessive guilt about the painting. In contrast, "A Prayer for Owen Meany" was a memorable story. I only read it once but still think about it years later.

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mintbrownie t1_je3thic wrote

One of my favorite discoveries on the book subs…how many people read Owen Meany years or decades ago and still remember it (and remember it rather fondly).

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Pickle_12 t1_jdwi6r1 wrote

Warning to all. Do not waste your time on The Last Chairlift. It is a horrible book. Boring and repetitious for 900 pages

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Gawdam_lush t1_jdygjdn wrote

I believe that goldfinch had two stories in one book that should have been two books.

It’s possible that because she was an acclaimed writer, her editor might not have wanted to change too much, but I would have taken out a huge chunk of the book.

Want to know this crazy theory I have? Her book was actually the story with pippa and her brother.

And the stuff that happened in Las Vegas and the stuff with the opiate abuse and the whole story line with Boris? That was all someone else’s story. My theory is that she might have met someone who she stole a journal from, and she added stuff from this journal into her own book. Possibly the journal belonged to a dead junkie.

The writing style is completely different from the rest of the book and in my opinion, the only part of the book that was any good. It was also too real. Unless Tart struggled with heroin addiction, I feel like she couldn’t have described the feeling that Theo felt in the hotel room.

The stolen masterpiece is a metaphor for the stolen story.

In an interview she said that she was going to focus more on Platt (pipas brother) which tells me that she doesn’t even realize how incredibly boring that character is and doesn’t realize that the real story was between Theo and Boris.

Makes sense though that she would have wanted to focus more on platt and his mom. Being from a wealthy family and being wealthy herself, she obviously would have more to say about them than the very interesting Boris, who seems so real I have a hard time believing he was purely fictional.

This is just a crazy theory I came up with while reading this monster of a story. Could be totally off.. but it’s interesting to think about

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fiddleleafthree t1_je7blnj wrote

I find all of Donna Tartt’s writing like this. The Goldfinch was a Herculean effort to get through, and I still had to switch to audio and listen in short chunks! I think I renewed it 3 times.

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[deleted] t1_jdve1dg wrote

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shnoogle111 OP t1_jdvedy4 wrote

It’s a very interesting observation. Based on the way, she discusses characters, I almost get the vibe that she is coming from a very privileged place, and most of her interactions with said people may be limited. I get the vibe that she is writing about her preconceived motion of the character types versus the reality in doing so, I feel she denies many of the characters, a significant portion of their humanity all in all, and again this is only my personal opinion, I do not feel this book was worthy of the Pulitzer Prize.

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