Submitted by hater_first t3_y9ugcr in books
The question is quite straight forward.
I have had a hard time understanding why black or Indigeneous people inexistant in a post-apocalyptic America?
And when they are present they seem to infuriate the readers.... Rue is a perfect example of that, people were loosing their minds because she was canonically black.
I understand racism, but this is straight erasure of the entiere ethnic group
Thanks for the recommendations! I recently started reading Octavia E. Butler and she is frankly amazing
Also try NK Jamisin. Lots of diverse characters there, including afro-centric futurism in the Broken Earth Trilogy.
I don't know her full body of work but Blood Child is dope.
I read Fledgling this summer and I'm planning to read Kindred during the Winter Break along with The Paroble of The Sower
The two Parable books are excellent, highly recommend them
Butler is the GOAT
Your title asks about fantasy and sci-fi, but your post mentions post-apocalyptic America. Those are 3 somewhat distinct genres so I’m not necessarily sure you can make such a sweeping generalization.
When it comes to fantasy many of the most famous novels/series are based on medieval Europe. Who do you think is “indigenous” to a small village in 1200 AD England?
People generally write about what they know and are interested in. Given that many fantasy writers are either from Europe or have their family heritage there, it’s not surprising that people write fiction based on that.
I think the largest swath of sci-fi deals with humanity at some point after some kind of apocalyptic occurrence on Earth.
Many fantasy writers that can get published and good advertisement are white
You mean "most fantasy authors who get published and bought into bestseller lists are white or have to pretend to be white like in the 1950s"
Well sci-fi can be set in the future so it does work for post-apocalyptic America.
When it comes to fantasy, exactly why can't we expand outside of medieval Europe? There is so much out there.
That's exactly my point why don't authors branch out?
I mean, that’s the thing - You can branch out. Nothing is stopping you from writing stories about whatever group of people you want.
Authors aren’t obligated to write about everything to please others personal interests. It’s the same reason why many historians specialize in popular world events like WW2 or medieval history, people focus on things that interest them.
Write it then instead of calling everybody racist
Art is meant to be criticized.
I didn't call anyone racist.
I'm an avid reader, I don't need to write a book to ma suggestions or express criticism
You not only accused authors of racism but also of trying to erase an entire ethnic group; your own words. Please 😂
This is arguing semantics. You know what OP meant. WHY do fantasy and sci fi and post apoc focus only on white populations? Can authors only write about other authors? Only about people of the same gender and sexual orientation as them? Why are they only interest in European populations in settings that should also call for non European populations (and maybe even exclusively non European ones)? That's the soul of the question you're dodging.
I’m not dodging it at all - people write about things that interest them. There is no arbitrary list of people/culture/disabilities/hair color/ shoe size that have to be included in every story.
If I write a story based on a family in medieval Europe, it (unsurprisingly) is going to feature people that are influenced by Europeans.
Nothing is stopping people from Africa, Asia, South America, etc. to write stories based on their history/culture.
Why do you think they don't?
I would guess for the same reason writing rap music, until maybe relatively recently, isn’t something that is particular popular among white Europeans - becoming a fantasy author is just not something that is equally popular across all cultures.
No one complained 20 years ago there weren’t enough rap songs about growing up as a white kid in suburbia. They didn’t criticize Dr. Dre and Nas for not writing songs about that lol.
>Nothing is stopping people from....
Fundamentally, wrong. There's a thousand sociological reasons for this. We see it historically with other groups for the same reason.
The choice of whites only is a choice. The interest isn't made in a vacuum and you know that.
ok, I'll bite.
why aren't non white audiences supporting non white authors writing non white stories? In other words, why are people waiting for hands me down (like Disney is doing these days) instead of creating their own stories?
why are we expecting authors to create art catering to everyone?
On the same page, why is the WNBA waiting for men to watch the WNBA while women do not do that in the first place?
Who has the money, owns the most capital to push certain stories? 🤔 Who owns the businesses that make it possible for something to become popular?
>why are we expecting authors
Why do you feel so attacked as to assume something from people asking a question? We aren't asking everything to be inclusive, we're asking why everything is exclusive.
We’re you equally upset that popular rap music in the 80s and 90s didn’t tell stories about growing up in a small village in the Czech Republic?
Better go ask Nas and Dr. Dre why they won’t write songs about Europeans lol.
But let me guess - you have some convoluted reason why it is okay in one direction but not the other….
Poetry and speculative fiction are two entirely different things.
There's a very big population of non-white people or even non-European people in the world. I'm glad that you think that representing even one of those groups who at least makes up half the global population is the same as the obscure experience of a small village in a small country in Europe.
Unfortunately for you, I am just as happy at the idea of the Czech people getting represented as any other group. You're the one who has a vested interest in defending ideologies that exclude them. :(
It's not exclusion to be against diversity quotas. Let people write about what they want and stop worrying about representation. It really doesn't matter the way people want you to think it does. The only reason to push representation is if you have ulterior motives a la social engineering.
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Everything is exclusive? Lmao you're just trying to find racism where there isn't any just like the OP their name is hater first, just looking for new hate. There's plenty of books that have black characters if you actually take the time to look for them instead of crying bout them not existing in the first place. Yes there's not an abundance of them but if you use some critical thinking/logical reasoning then you'll discover that vast majority of authors for those 3 genres are white. But you also got to think of what the culture is like aswell, America is predominantly white so there will of course be more white characters... go read stuff from authors of different countries.
Greek Americans only make up 1% of the American population (I'm being generous here, as well, as I've seen as low as .5), yet I can find plenty of books that include me whether through realistic fiction, historical, science fiction, post apoc, and even societies based off of mine in fantasy. Why is my race so well represented in America when we are predominately not in America?
Are you white skinned? Jesus you're reaching so far that your arm may become dislocated. Wasn't this discussion about skin color of characters in books and not where the characters lineage is from?
So which fantasy books are you reading that explicitly states the real world lineage of characters(to match skin color) and not just some statement about skin color?
Reread, king, your comprehension is busted. We were talking about EUROPEAN and specifically English medieval period being overly represented in this chain of comments. The talk was about how interest is based only on your heritage (somehow). So, why should I as a GREEK find any interest in other Europeans just because I am pale? (I am part Turk.) Yet, I don't have to find that. My SPECIFIC heritage is represented more so than the population should dictate.
It doesn't have to explicitly state lineage. When they are calling characters Castor and Acastus and Penelope and described with dark curly hair and dark eyes and olive skin, I know they are using my heritage as a building point for their fantasy culture.
Lmao. No one said you have to find any interest in things that don't interest you, we're human we will like what we as an individual like. I believe this line of discussion was about the authors heritage influencing their works and not the heritage of the readers influencing the authors work. And those are just names, I had a white guy named dewayne that worked at my last job with me should he have been black or different ethnicity because of his name?
But I'm done with this convo, we'll just be going in circles from here based on your responses.
But here's some helpful guidance to hopefully help you and others that read this. Everyone is different, we are all human we bleed red when cut, stop seeing skin color or ethnicity or what someone believes in as proof that that person is this way or that, actually see the person in front of you and not some superficial fluff.
Why jump into a conversation when you didn't even read what other participants said? I shouldn't have to break down all of your arguments into the context of the conversation for you. To say it's reaching that an entire society with Greek names, Greek appearance, Greek social mores, based off of what Ancient Greeks did with a pantheon similar to Ancient Greeks is note based on Greeks is insane. You just want to be right. You just want to hear yourself talk. Some guidance: instead of jumping into a conversation you refused to read when you just want to talk, buy a microphone and read aloud to yourself.
Who said anything about Greeks besides you? Lmfao
I'll remind you of your argument for you:
You said: Most Americans are white, so their interest goes to white characters. Your implication being that the interest is based only on statistics not on other factors that go into this interest.
I said: I am Greek, and most white Americans are not Greek. Yet, American fantasy has a high saturation of Greek based fantasy despite the population. I asserted, because there are a lot of people interested in Greeks and a small minority of Americans are Greek means that the interest isn't about statistical presence in America.
You said: What is your skin color? Implying that because I am white, I should be interested in European cultures other than mine.
I said: But the whole premise you are defending states that it is about heritage. Why are Polish people interested in my Greek heritage? Why should I, a Greek, be interested in English fantasy?
You said: No one is talking about Greeks. Those Greek names could be anything, even though you specifically asked me to define how I knew the fantasy I read was talking about or referencing Greeks in some way.
Yeah the presence of characters and how they look is up to the author of the book and most authors in these genres are white. I seen a few of your comments on this post talking about you thinking someone is implying something. If you were following this thread then it started with how authors books are usually inspired by themselves and their history and that's why there are more white characters in these genres.
Edit but I'm done with this.
If its inspired by themselves, why are there so many Greek fantasies and characters and heritage represented when Greeks make up 1 or less % of the population and the authors themselves are not Greek?
Are you unaware of the popularity and tradition of telling stories about Greek mythology? Xena the warrior princess, the Disney film Hercules etc. And that's just the super popular stuff.
Do you need help figuring out why writing stories in that same vein is popular among writers? Really?
Have you heard of money?
It's almost like that was my exact point. There is more than statistical presence of something that garners interest. If you'd taken even a passing interest in reading what I've written, you'd have seen that you should have been saying that to someone else besides me as that has been my point this entire time. No one here is of Greek heritage, yet they think that Greek heritage is popular in fantasy because of how many Greeks there are (in the same vein as their arguments towards other kinds of fantasy that focus on other European heritage).
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Personal conduct
Please use a civil tone and assume good faith when entering a conversation.
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Because Greece had more influence on modern western civilization than any other culture.
Even if the Greeks didn't personally make it to America in large numbers their influence certainly did
It's almost like my point is that it has nothing to do with what someone has personally experienced or what is statistically "relevant". The use of the Greek canon and heritage to create fantasy worlds has nothing to do with Greek authors. The interest is formed from something else.
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Everyone? Dude 1950s are over. Black people have money now, you know. just on my street alone there are probably 5 or 6 black millionaires who live in giant houses, God only knows how much money they have.
Also, I gotta say that it is mindboggling how you can use an example that literally has you stumbling into the point and ignorantly use it as proof of your point:
>On the same page, why is the WNBA waiting for men to watch the WNBA while women do not do that in the first place?
Women, from the time they are born, are not urged to move in the same way boys are. This happens from birth to death. We have proof of this. Boys are urged to do physical activities, watch physical activities, find comradery and even their own personhood in sports.
Girls, on the flip side, are rarely urged to do these things (once again, from the moment of birth) in the same way boys are. Women are told they are weaker and so it is pointless to perform these things. Women are discouraged from it (teenaged boys can beat you).
Funds, from school and onwards, are almost always dedicated to male participant sports. Self-perpetuating cycles.
Sociological factors win out. Why would women, who are actively discouraged in multiple ways for generations on a societal and individual level, from participating in sports be expected to consume enough sports media to hold up the industry they are actively discouraged from participating in, in every level?
you're just spouting the very same stereotypes that you're attributing to society as a whole: the difference in sport participation by gender is much lower than your comment would imply, and does not justify the lack of participation in sports entertainment at all:
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try again, maybe without parroting someone else's words this time.
Whose words was I parroting?
Look at the statistics. Who is watching sports? Who is encouraged to be in sports as a career? Who is given funding? Who isn't? If women consistently make less and their sports is not watched and they make less because of this, do you think it has the same effect as male sports on men?
I love how you're telling someone to look at the statistics when they're the ones actually citing statistics and you're just spouting broad assertions. Why don't we take a look at the statistics? The WNBA makes 0.76% of the revenue of the NBA (despite its operating costs being subsidized by the NBA). Do you think that only 0.76% of women participate or are interested in sports? Well, 50-70% of women watch sports regularly depending on the country, according to last year's Global Sports Survey.
For one, their stats were behind a paywall and it wasn't just about sports but anything aerobic or strength gaining related. People who go to the gym do not equal people who are involved in or interested in sports. People who go on walks or do yoga does not equal people who watch sports.
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I never said it was made in a vacuum lol? I pretty explicitly stated people write about the things that interest them, their culture ties, etc. People are influenced and inspired by their heritage, where they live, etc. so obviously that is going to impact what they write about.
I’ve still yet to see a legitimate reason why someone from a particular culture/group can’t write a story about themselves and why you think you have the audacity to expect authors to check off a bunch of arbitrary boxes for who is included in their stories.
Europe is a very diverse place, I’m not sure where the slippery slope ends for how many groups have to be included for it to get your seal of approval.
You didn't have to say it, it's implied. American authors writing about medieval fantasy European is their culture?
We aren't saying people aren't allowed to do anything. The fact you are reducing a question of why to trying to instigate erasing the opposite way is telling.
Why is it arbitrary?
What slippery slope is there? Are you telling me that if every form of media never depicted a white man you wouldn't be questioning it?
Many white Americans are 1-2 generations removed from Europe. Modern fantasy authors likely grew up reading fantasy influenced by Europe. How do you not understand how this would influence what people are interested in writing about. Conversely, how many fantasy authors do you think can trace back their recent history to Africa?
The slippery slope is where does the list of who/what has to be included end? It isn’t up to individual authors to meet arbitrary distributions of people. How many blind people need to be included? Redheads? Lgbtq? Short people? Inuits? NASCAR drivers?
And, yet, many white Americans are writing about fantasy cultures that do not exist and are based on European cultures they are not a part of. Funny.
It's almost like a system has been created that isn't based on what's interesting but what is allowed to continue.
Why do you think that there are less African fantasy authors? How many are authors and how many write for their own pleasure and never go further?
Yet, all the "arbitrary" people you talk about like redheads, short people, even nascar drivers have a tendency to be portrayed more frequently. Hm.
Why do you think there are less white rappers? Do you think that is problematic? Funny that many rappers right about made up cultures and scenarios they aren’t part of.
See it works both ways.
If you think black people are underrepresented across media you are being either purposefully disingenuous or really have your blinders on.
It’s pretty simple - modern day sci-fin and fantasy are largely influenced by Europe, therefore they primarily feature European settings and draw influence from European rappers.
Go write the stories you want to see, idk what else to tell you lol
There are less white rappers because it's a genre created by black people that talks about the black experience and was created in the last 100 years. I guess you think that only Europeans know how to write? :(
Good you’re almost there. Fantasy (largely high fantasy is what it seems OP is alluding to) is a genre that primarily came from European authors writing fiction around medieval Europe.
The great thing about being an adult, is just like any race can choose to write rap songs about wherever/whatever/whoever they want - any race can choose to write fantasy novels about wherever/whatever/whoever they want.
No, it didn't. It has existed for well over a 100 years and has roots in many cultures. Modern fantasy is definitely based on European writers, however. No need to be condescending when you can't even grasp basic concepts such as access.
To deny that white people essentially created and have contributed the most to what we view today as fantasy and sci fi is just historical revisionism and denial. This isn’t a good vs bad judgement, just statement of fact.
The same reason why rap has, until recently, been largely dominated by African Americans. They created the genre and have contributed the most to it.
No one had a problem with that, and the solution to bringing in more diversity was more people of other races immersing themselves in the genre and trying to become rappers. It wasn’t to ask African American rappers to be more inclusive/write about white people lol.
I just said that modern fantasy is European based. Way to paint an argument as disingenuous as possible instead of attack the real one. Reread what I said. Fantasy, as a whole, has links to many cultures over many time periods. Fantasy is heavily related to mythology. Unless you think that only Europeans have magic and mythology related stories?
Once again, you are taking two examples of writing that don't relate. Rap and most poetry is highly personal. A fantasy story is not. To say otherwise is just wrong. Participation only matters when participation is allowed to exist. You have willfully ignored every point because it hurts your feelings. We can see that by saying that I'm trying to erase European history from the creation of the modern fantasy genre when that was never stated.
You keep running into the point and then walking away from it. There are societal factors that keep certain people from being able to write certain things with the same reach as others. You can argue that until your face is blue, but that's the truth. Modern standards on what fantasy should be keep out authors with different ideas. Modern standards and racial biases also keep out certain groups. Sociological factors also do which are semi-related to racism as well also keep out certain people from writing and being published. Is that so hard to understand?
Should we dance around the subject for a few more hours so you can prop up nonsensical examples like rapping about Czech Republic when the foundational precedent of rap is always a highly personal narrative and was made by and for a specific group of people in a way that writing (as a whole) and fantasy (as a whole) was not?
You have made arguments many times painting my side of the argument to mean that I want to force writers to only write what I want them to write, that I think a gun should be held to their head. No. Me and OP are asking a question. You are hilariously missing the point because the truth isn't convenient for you. White authors and white European fantasies are the norm. They sell better. They are published more. They have nothing systemically holding them back from the publishing industry in the same way. They are not held to the same standards and can write whatever they wish. They, like you and all of us, are subject to the world we live in which only cares about white Europeans. It isn't a statistical interest. It's a historical precedent based off of white supremacist colonialism from white Europeans to break it down to the most straightforward deconstruction of the argument.
You’ve hit the nail on the head. Black people/POC are underrepresented because systemic racism. Simple. To argue otherwise is ignorant. (Obviously taking into account historical exceptions.)
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Not if I was living in Africa.
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Writing a fantasy novel based on cultures other than your own, especially marginalised ones, is a good way to attract an hate mob to get your book removed from shelves for racism and cultural appropriation.
Bro that's a lie.
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Than prove me wrong. List me popular sci-fi/fantasy books with prominent black or Indigeneous characters
Would cyberpunk count as sci-fi? Raven, the main baddie in Snow Crash, is Aleut. That book is pretty much multiethnic all the way around
Also main character is black and Japanese.
Yup, Hiro Protagonist.
The Red Rising Series (my personal favorite sci-fi series)
The Furies are all black
Atlantia (>! Likely one of the BBEG of the second series!<)
Moira (the least important one by far)
Aja (arguably the single most badass fighter in the entire series)
Ajax (Aja's son) is also black
Also, their father, The Ash Lord is also black.
All the characters (except Moira, RIP) are extremely important characters.
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Binti (A Hugo & Nebula award winner)
Main character is African
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Murderbot Diaries (2 Hugo/Nebula winners, a single Hugo, 3 rejected hugo nominations, and a Hugo for best Series)
While racial terms aren't used at all, skin color descriptions vary significantly to encompass what is likely a wide range of lineages.
Can't give you a popular one but one of my favourite books is by David Gemmell : Winter Warriors
In the fantasy genre you have Nalini Singh. All her books have POC as main characters and/or strong supporting characters. I can recall a couple of others but want to recommend only the ones written by POC. If you have TikTok follow books.with.lee . She is a black woman who recommends only books with black authors and black main characters. I’ve liked a lot of her recommendations.
I already follow her & I really like her! Her taste is really great
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Because they made the claim.
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Provoking discussion is the worst thing in the world 😔
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I don't actually remember many being described by skin colour, and why would you? Leaving colour ambiguous leaves us to put our own face on people. OP is expecting characters to be explicitly described as black but very few are explicitly described as white.
POC know what words are used to describe us and what words are used for white people. Talk, dark, and handsome is always a white man with brown eyes and dark hair.
Seriously? That's really sad. Surely if asked to identify a talk dark handsom man you would think first of a POC. If an author is not specific I interpret how I see fit. Try so Olivia E Butler. She doesn't always describe her characters a black but a lot of them are clearly POC. There are undoubtedly some racist authors out there. They are people too but there are a lot who just write a good story.
Edit octavia rather than Olivia?
OP gives an example of this. White is the default in media. It's how our society runs. Look at the OP, they gave an example of how people lashed out when their perception ran counter to reality because they assumed the default.
>That's really sad.
Yeah, it is. That's decades/centuries of exclusion working. Shit goes deep in the culture
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Not always. In fact talk dark and handsome normally indicates that the person is not white.
It really does mean a man with fair skin and dark hair. It was a term coined during the romantic period to describe men with fair skin and dark hair. During this era men with this combination started to be considered swoon worthy. All male leads in Jan Austin fit this description. The specific term was first used in writing at some point in the 1830s.
I'm sorry but if the character is described as blond hair, olive skin or blue eyes they are coded as white.
You can imagine them however you want, but they are still white
And if they are described a dark with brown eyes? Are the automatically white too?
No, but dark often refer to white people. As a black person, I have rarely heard people describe someone as dark. Darkskin ? Yes. Dark ? Almost never
So it's the way you read and interpret. If I see a character described as dark I assume they're black. I'm currently reading A Time of Dread by John Wynne. He describes a character as darker of skin than his southern neighbours...or similar words. I immediately see him as a black man. You might interpret that differently but nowhere in the book is anyone described as black or white. And why should they be? It's not racist to ignore race. Its quite clear the author sees a wide rainbow of skin colour if you interpret that as binary black and not black I would politely suggest the problem may be with you.
Where I’m from people use it to mean brown or tanned skin. But I’m guessing that’s the difference between native and non-native english speakers. We’re much more literal in translations.
I remember when I thought olive skin meant black (like olives)
I thought Katniss from The Hunger Games was black 🤣
I honestly think that the authors personal experiences affect their writing. They may not even notice that they are excluding other races.
Maybe they also feel like they can’t write those characters because they feel like they can’t represent them well.
I honestly don’t know why though, a group of real authors would need to let you know…
Olive does not mean white tho. When read ASOIAF, the Dornish were described as having Olive skin, and Dorne is based on the Middle East.
Edit: lol some knob downvoted me.
Olive skin is not directly white to me….unless the white person has been on holiday and gotten a nice tan.
Olive skin almost exclusively refers to a sort of European Mediterranean look... so yes, white
or Latino
Descendents of white Mediterranean Europeans would also have olive skin yes
Merely pointing out that in the US, the Latin look is commonly considered not to be white, unlike in Europe. And of course many people of mixed race have olive skin, and are definitely not considered white there either.
The USA is an outlier yes, one drop “spoils” the whole lotus to them
It's pretty simple. Most authors and sci-fi and fantasy for the past 70 years have been white and default white characters. However, you can go looking and find plenty of authors who write wonderful stories with characters of all races. Octavia Butler has wonderful stories featuring majority black characters, some sci-fi, some post-apocalyptic America, not sure about fantasy for her.
It is good we are seeing some more movement in that area in more modern fantasy and sci-fi. And it's one of the reasons I think it's great to see fantasy works that are brought to television using more multi-racial casts to make the world more accessible for more people.
It's the same reason a lot of books have mostly male characters. If an author isn't being thoughtful about character creation they just go to their default and white men have dominated the industry for 70 years and their default has been white men. I don't like calling it racist as I don't think it's intentional I think it's just thoughtless
Not books but I remember star trek really started the act of putting actually main black characters in.
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"Problem launch detected."
High school kids are taught this framing. It's presented as a way to engage in modern edgy boy humor. They're used as pawns in a broader organized shake-down racket.
Constant racialist problem baiting. Then followed up with demand for some form of concession. When it's in your workplace it's a form of racketeering. Using story telling to threaten drama for concessions of some sort. Bandits don't ride into town threatening violence anymore. It's a more sophisticated world. They threaten through narrative. The bandits have taught your kids to kick off the shake-down. Then they ride in on the heals of the edgy boy brigade and offer consulting service or some other lump sum payment to make the racialized narrative go away.
You may have noticed how it looks like a term paper when a problem launch appears. "The insufferable white supremacy of lego's." "Classical music is a lasting legacy of hate." It's exactly what it looks like.
This is due to the over production of 'studies' fields in universities. These degrees have no demand in the marketplace. No one wants the services of a person whose only skill is to incessantly sniff out forms of oppression that were solved before any of us were born. With no demand they busy themselves fabricating demand. For a time the basket catching these unneeded degrees were Starbucks and administration offices on University campuses. Then they swallowed up the universities. And now the bandits metastasize outward innovating make-work jobs for themselves by launching problems that don't exist. Create an activist leadership job for themselves around that problem. Then when the trend of it grows stale the same people launch a new problem.
The problem is there is no productive demand for that service. Its become a lazy shake-down racket. It's illegal. It's becoming mainstream to recognize how the shake-down works and what bigots virtue seeking toxic empathy can be. They do none of the hard work to build actual virtue.
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Pretty sure that's a bunch of cryptonazi bullshit that you could have summed up by saying "racism doesn't exist anymore"
That's not my opinion.
Bad faith take. Manipulative frauds accuse you of the things they're engaged in. The mirror burns. Called out they go for the personal attack. Until everyone around them takes a step away and recognizes the fraud for what they are. This is when they move to a new community and continue their ways. Until burning those bridges, too.
I'm black and I couldn't care less lol. Just give me a good well written story
And that's you.
It's fine but I do care.
I think representation is really important in well written book
Do you care if all groups are represented equally? Does it have to only be race? What about gender? Religious beliefs? Disability? Sexuality? Hair color? Political affiliation?
I wonder if you really think it’s a problem of lack of inclusivity or if it’s a problem of not including the groups you specifically care about at the exact proportion of you’ve arbitrarily determined is right.
For every group.
I used to read a lot when I was in HS then pick reading back up last year (I am in my early 20's) and I made a point to diversify my bookshelves.
It includes the LGBTQ+ community, BIPOC authors and books that also includes disable characters etc.
I don't buy books from more conservative authors but I do consume media from everyone in the spectrum because it's essentially to know what everyone is saying. So I look at PragerU, Candace Owens, Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson even if they don't align with my beliefs.
So yes, I care about diversity and inclusion all around
Well, I think it's not important at all. What now?
Hence why I said I.
You don't have to care and no one is forcing you to.
Different people care about different thing
> It's fine but I do care.
Bullshit. Bad faith all the way down. A couple decades ago we called this form of race baiting bigotry. Still do. Actually. Its become mainstream to voice that. The magic words were overused. The politeness that maybe the person is well meaning but misguided exhausted. The temperance of good people convinced that these problem launches are mean spirited.
because a lot of popular sci fi/fantasy authors are white. so we have to hunt a bit to find good books. https://bookriot.com/science-fiction-novels-by-authors-of-color/
FWIW this is in the process of changing. The pool of sci-fi and fantasy authors is increasingly diverse, and a lot of younger agents are actively looking for previously underrepresented voices.
EDIT: and I probably should have read your link before replying, as it makes the same point. Never mind, this is what two hours of sleep gets me.
Do people really check author's skin color before choosing a book?
Have you read ursula k le guin? She's a classic fantasy/sci Fi author, and many of her stories feature non white main characters (earthsea and the left hand of darkness are my favorite of hers! And both have a lot of diversity)
The Left Hand of Darkness looks really interesting! I just put a hold for the audiobook! Thanks for the rec
I'd recommend physically reading it because I don't think the format will translate as well with an audiobook.
I've read the audiobook and it holds up well
Most likely because there have been very few black authors in the sci-fi/fantasy genre. People who write books tend to write them based on their own life experience and will usually put someone who looks a lot like themselves into the primary roles. Historically most writers come from an upper/middle class Caucasian background. Nobody is out trying to discriminate against blacks in sci-fi/fantasy. You might as well ask why most books from India or China don't have many white protagonists in them.
As an avid reader of those genres myself I couldn't give a damn what "race" any of the characters are from as long as the book is good. I'm very confident that nobody else I know who reads a lot cares either.
Also on this topic, when white authors do put people of colour or different ethnicity in the books they are often ridiculed and criticised for various reasons so maybe they don’t want to risk this. So yes I would look for books from the list of authors of colour if you are looking for something more in particular.
Do they though? People might get mad at you if you try to write about the real world experience of people very different from yourself (especially if you don't do a good job). But do people get upset about fantasy? Again I can't think of it happening except when it was because of something genuinely offensive.
When I used to have Twitter there was always a lot of people complaining about it. There was also a lot of backlash about the description of some characters in shadow and bone, and the fact racism existed in a made up fantasy realm
The second largest ethnic group in the US after white is Hispanic, not black and certainly not indigenous. There are more Asians than Native Americans.
I've never heard of any Hispanic characters in SF/fantasy outside of own voices authors like Silvia Moreno-Garcia.
Look into Afro-Futurism. It’s a movememt aimed at rectifying the exact problem you‘ve noticed; it creates a place for stories of black people and African cultural influences in a sci-fi or fantasy context. For a very pop-culture example, Black Panther is considered Afro-Futurism.
Great I'll look it up! Thanks for the rec!
Because publishers don’t think it will sell.
A lot of people have made the comment that most fantasy authors are white so that's what they write. But I am guessing it would be more accurate to say most published fantasy authors (in the US) are white. Like any profession in the US, whiteness has dominated for most of our history. Publishers make assumptions about what the general public is willing to read (hence buy) and exclude what doesn't fit the commercial mold. And up until the last couple of decades most books sold in the US were written in the US and the UK. There was very little commercial interest in authors from anywhere else. That is starting to change. Some of the book newsletters (buzzfeed books, goodreads, etc) are making a point of creating lists like "best books by indigenous authors" or "best books by POC". I've read some books that I probably never would have noticed because of those lists and now my algorithms are sending me more diverse recommendations. Books with POC are out there, look for them, read them, buy them, make it clear to publishers there's an appetite and you will see more of them.
How are you asserting standard race to a fantasy novel? What's the most important aspect to you when it comes to representation ? Is it appearance or history or culture? Fantasy is about escapism and avoiding such topics may be the authors intention. If the author said a character skin glistened like honey under a midday sun are you going to instantly attach a race to it?
Actually they are not absent except in much older scifi. For a great example check out the HONOR HERRINGTON series by David Weber. Many of the characters are described as very dark or mahogany skinned. In most scifi literature skin color is just ignored and most characters have no physical description.
There is nothing so equitable as the pen. Every identity can pick up a pen and write whatever form speaks to them. Argument is revealed as absurdist by using the same structure "Why are white people inexistant in japanese caligraphy?"
Bad faith.
Anyone can pick up the pen but not anyone can pay to have their writing published and publicized.
> not anyone can pay to have their writing published and publicized.
That frame is a mental prison. The door is unlocked. All you have to do is open it and step through. You can do so by writing your own narrative. An empowering personal story. Your operating system. You can discard a useless one. If you do not author your own, a fraud will assign one to you.
Have you ever published a book as a poc?
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Just expand your selections. That's not too day this is nit historically a problem, for many of the same reasons that can be found in other forms of media, but for my money, no go genre has benefitted from a surge in diversity than science-fiction/fantasy.
Otherwise, i think the answer to your question is fairly obvious: some people suck.
Most of the major authors are white currently. They may not feel comfortable expanding outside of their own homogeneous comfort zone because there is a very real chance they’ll be told they’re culturally appropriating, or they’re unqualified to write the experience of a POC would have. Also there are many POC that don’t want to read about “their” people written by a white author, they also want the author to be a POC not just the characters. At this point it is obvious that with a few very well known exceptions it is extremely difficult for authors of color to break into mainstream publishing companies especially in genres like Sci-fi and Fantasy. It does seem like there are more authors of color in general fiction and romance. Readers (especially white ones) have to prove they’re open to both characters and authors who are POC. Indie and self publishing have made it easier to access a more diverse author base but there’s a long way to go.
For a long time most authors were white men. To the surprise of absolutely no one they mainly wrote about white men. Nowadays there is more diversity among writers (in terms of gender, sexuality and race, at least) and there are more diverse protagonists as a result.
I remember getting into an argument on some website post/article on notable american Sci-Fi writers, in it... the author mentioned Octavia E. Butler as a black writer. I simply asked why her skin colour was of any importance, in the comments, .....which led to some pretty interesting back and forth.
As a non-white person and some who is not from US(or Canada or Europe), it is incredibly hard for me to care or notice things related to race, ethnicity or whatever.... For example, in the Altered Carbon series, the main character is called Takeshi Kovacs, that sounds like a Japanese & Dutch name, no? And that's it, did not notice or cared any further.
However, the author of that article typed about representation and the history towards dark skinned people in the US(or North America) etc. Now, I at least understand that even if this is not an important thing for me, it is important to other people.
First off I would just like to say people saying but there were only Europeans in Europe are missing out on a lot of current research. But I feel the most useful thing to do is highlight non-white authors writing SF&F. So a non exhaustive list of people I can remember of the top of my head.
- Marlon James
- SA Chakraborty
-Evan Winters
- Yoon Ha Lee
- Octavia Butler
- Tade Thompson
- Aliette de Bodard
- Rebecca Roanhorse
- Karen Lord
- Stephen Graham Jones
-
Lot of great answers in the thread already, but two examples that spring to mind:
The Altered Carbon (Richard Morgan) series (books 1,2 & 3) is dystopian sci-fi and features POC main characters. It's trashy but highly enjoyable
Borne (Jeff Vandermeer) is post-apocalyptic sci-fi and features female POC protagonist.
Agree that there's under-representation, but it's changing for the better
Anyone mention the Expanse yet?
It also comes down to what publishers pick to put out; it’s a vicious, highly marketed area of publishing. Check out young adult sci-fi and fantasy, there are many authors writing characters of colour.
To keep it realistic: what groups do you think would have the smallest chance surviving in a post-apocalyptic, resource-lacking environment? Obviously those who are already facing difficulties and are already oppressed and discriminated. /s
Seriously, though, I second what other comments said: it's probably just the result of authors not thinking about minorities. Not on purpose, just what happens when you don't have to think about something
I would venture to guess in a true post-apocalyptic setting the people better set to survive would be the ones who have been used to harsh conditions for generations.
Good point
There's a very big difference between "harsh" conditions and a post-apocalyptic world. Atleast in america those that would have a higher chance of surviving would be those who already live off grid, the average american wouldn't be able to last a month off grid without having to run to a store to buy food or whatnot.
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I think it might be a mix of write what you know and write what sells to the most people. I know that sucks. And no, I have no idea how people could get pissed off that Rue and Thresh (if I'm remembering his name right?) were black, but I assume its that same people that got pissed off a made up creature like a mermaid could be black.
I talked to someone that said they couldnt even read Hunger Games "because they werent a teenage girl," so sometimes people are just unable to open their brains.
There are some great new fantasy books out there with black MC's or entirely black casts - The Gilded Ones has been a big hit and is set in a version of Africa. For me it was refreshing to dive into a world that had no roots set in the US or Europe.
Most of the good cyberpunk books are not only white. Three body problem series. Octavia butler. Main character in the expanse. A memory called empire - awesome book btw. The stone sky series. Spiral war series. The honor Harrington series (best friend and ruling family are black but it’s pretty England like), collapsing empire series the same. Blue remembered earth. Kim Stanley Robinson s mats series. Seveneves. The water knife. Other land series. Ancillary justice series. Then there is a ton of books where race is totally irrelevant to any part of the story.
The issue is that there are not enough widely circulated black sci fi authors. Happily we are getting some good translations on Asian authors now - hopefully this will happen with more countries. It has been generally a U.S. and Uk led genre for a while.
You touched on most authors being white men and that this was due to resource allocation and history.
There is something to that of course, but should said white men be the ones writing the stories for perspectives they know little of?
There are more and more poc authors making their mark on the genre and their works keep getting more recognition and awards. Even old ones like Le Guin and Butler get more attention nowadays. I think with time there will be more diversity in the genre.
Because white people made both genres and have contributed the most to both of them?
There's nothing stopping black people from writing science fiction or fantasy based on their own people and culture, they just don't seem to do that very much.
They do, but publishers just don't want to publish it
Probably because their writing is trash lol
And how would you know the writing is bad if it is an unpublished book? A pretty broad assumption. If your not willing to admit the publishing industry has biases this is the end of the conversation. But it does, and this is why you see less POC authors in all genres and less female authors in most genres
Publishers need to be able to sell their books.
And there's a lot of avenues for self publishing and self marketing these days. If there were really so many genius black authors being oppressed by whitey than maybe we'd hear about more of those, huh?
Maybe there's just not a lot of good black authors. I'm not screaming discrimination because hip hop is disproportionately black. Or demanding that we need more white representation in rap. The most likely answer is that black rappers are generally "better", or at the very least more marketable and profitable.
You see where I'm getting at.
And what you said about female authors is ridiculous. Maybe in the past, even the recent past, sure, I don't doubt that there was some discrimination against female authors. But it only took me a quick Google search to discover that women dominated literary bestsellers in recent years. Plus there have always been influential female authors. Mary Shelley arguably invented the science fiction genre for example.
For anyone who is interested in YA books of all genres written by Black authors, Melanin in YA is a database of Black YA authors, literary agents, editors, book influencers, etc....
When you reference ethnicity, are you thinking culture, or just skin colour?
For a hypothetical example, consider another knock-off Tolkienish fantasy novel with elves, dwarves, etc. in a setting similar to Tolkien's middle earth.
Would you consider this book inclusive if some of the characters, or the general populace, were described as having non-white skin colours? It would have the same general themes and background setting as Tolkien, the non-white characters wouldn't be different in any way beyond being described as having darker skin colour.
Racism and writers giving the market what the vocal majority wants?
If it hasn't been mentioned, the broken earth trilogy is very good and has a lot of colored characters.
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Parts of the Bible are Egyptian, Arabian and Jewish history and other parts are Egyptian, Arabian and Jewish mythology, at least in my eyes. It should be notes that the Vikings of Bohemia welcomed Ahmad in Fadlan from Persia to trade with his family, and markings on certain Viking Swords from the time period imply that the Muslims were actually a positive influence on Viking culture, which was mostly Barbaric, had Christian-Islamic markings in the coming centuries. This isn't to say that Turkey did not war after the Ottoman Empire had banded and disbanded over and over, but that isn't to be blamed on racial relations - there was a serious political struggle in Bohemia for centuries afterward, though the Czech and Romanians have a completely different history with Turkey in the 1400s. But Persia and Arabia have been friends, enemies and every which way with Eurasian countries for a long time. This kind of stuff is all relevant to modern fantasy, but the crusades, which are a major point in history, are rarely referenced. The Jewish, Muslims, and Christians all fought for ages over specific regions of the middle east and racial wars, nonracial religious wars, multiracial wars against specific states, war rape, the death of old Lebanon (who is pure Lebanese?) Ottoman struggles, Turkish-Roman treaties and miniwars, the assaults on Armenia, political deaths... there's a reason people don't depict racial struggles in fantasy, I mean I feel bad thinking about some of this stuff. Anyways, there's always Star Treck, which portrays stereotypes in a mature way and doesn't discriminate races, usually. Now to answer the question, the main reason black fantasy is uncommon is because of the British Royalty Influence of the Middle ages and Roman history, like listen to the Steely Dan song, Kings, which is about Prince Arthur's elder brothers. King John was the great man who proposed and signed in Habeas Corpus, which is still used in modern judicial systems. If a prisoner is sentenced, no matter what the sentence, even postmortem their suit may be revisited and any unlawful business related to their sentencing can be punished and if the prisoner, upon opening of the new case, is alive and proven to be innocent they will be released. Most people who aren't lawyers don't know this, but it even applies today if you've been unlawfully charged and it can be proven. The question I have, is what type of black fantasy do you want to read? I think Egyptian fantasy would be a neat topic, almost entirely unexplored.
I realized that even on apps that allow for budding authors to share their works, most of even write books with only white characters. I guess it’s kind of how some parts of the world have conditioned these writers to think.🤷🏾♀️
A character in The Postman is black. He's a bit of hero.
This doesn't answer your question, of course, but the Alice Yu trilogy by Jim Keen has several significant black characters and is a great action sci-fi read!
Straight up not true.
Proove me wrong.
I'd like nothing more
The expanse is probably the best sci Fi tv show and book series out there by far and has a very diverse cast in both books and tv show. Arrival also a great sci Fi film that has black characters in it. Honestly a lot of the sci fi I read I don't really remember colour of skin being mentioned. But those two are just off the top of my head. Also Dune's fremen are meant to be middle eastern rather than European, don't the film has pushed that as much as the author made it clear?
You've alleged a serious grievance. The burden rests on you to prove yourself. That sleight of hand to shift burden to the accused is the signature of manipulative fraud.
Please present evidence of people “losing their minds” that Rue was black? Never heard of that happening
Ah ok, that seems to be people moaning about the film so I’d assume most of those idiots haven’t read the book then as she is described as brown skinned in the book.
But is there anyone who moaned when the book came out that there was a black character? That’s what I assumed the OP was getting at
> But is there anyone who moaned when the book came out that there was a black character?
a lot of people didn't catch that she was black. it was a bit surreal to watch people go all 'why did they have to change the source material for diversity!??!' when in the source material she is black.
Should have heard the fuss when Hermione was cast as black in the harry potter play! And yet all we know is that she has buck teeth, brown eyes and brown bushy hair. No reason that couldn't be black. Emma Watson was the miscast in terms of looks.
Yea I remember that! I actually saw it in west end, it’s really good! Visual effects are amazing.
Emma Watson was definitely a very glamorous Hermione much to the disappointment of every buck toothed frizzy haired avid reader who saw a part of themselves in that character when reading the books
I wrote this in an answer to one of your comments but if you have TikTok follow an account books.with.lee
She’s a black woman who only recommends books with black authors and black characters. She has a ton of recommendations in all genres.
Another factor is that many modern sci-fi authors subscribe to the concept that in the future the race of man will have inter mixed to a homogeneous blend.
probably because a lot of fantasy is setted i medieval europe/ most fantasy creatures stem from european myths and fairy tales. The whole genre is just dominated by european culture
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It’s probably because white Americans are the majority of the market in the US and tend to be uninterested in characters of a different race, whereas POC have had little choice since birth but to empathize with a whole cast of characters that do not look like them.
I am thoroughly unconvinced by arguments that “Meh it’s medieval Europe” when these fantasy races have purple and green skin.
It’s not because “write what you know” since most authors probably know SOME poc. And again- the races/beings in fantasy are made up. For sci-fi and dystopia, it’s speculative fiction, so there are very little rules.
Let us be honest. It’s a lack of interest, both by consumers and authors.
All I have to add OP is that I’m sorry for all of these racist ass people on Reddit
I was taken aback by the response. This subreddit is ok most of the time so I thought it was a great idea.
At least it sparked conversation I guess
No you didnt. You came with harmful, dangerous, baseless claims with absolutely nothing to show for yourself, and got told you are wrong. If you're to stupid to see why your approach is bad, then i feel sorry for you
If OP is a poc, it's exactly their place to comment their experience
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samx3i t1_it7ekk5 wrote
50 Best Black Science Fiction Books