I just read The Silmarilion and I am speechless.

Submitted by Tenorius t3_yb6w6u in books

To be honest it wasn't an easy read. In the beginning I was geographically and genealogically lost... then I kept consulting an map and after each chapter I searched for videos to better illustrate the travels of the characters and then it clicked! It all begun to make sense and feel more real, like i was reading a historical book. I think i have never experienced such a immersion in a fictional world before. Tolkien will forever be my most beloved author.

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foul_dwimmerlaik t1_itf36ea wrote

Great! Now you can start on the Book of Lost Tales I and II and learn all about first-draft Sauron, who was a giant demonic housecat.

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Jealous-Ambassador-8 t1_itf3itc wrote

I started reading The Book of Lost Tales in 1982.

I still haven’t gotten past Tinuviel.

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mongreldogchild t1_itfyllh wrote

My father gave up trying to read it to me (when I was a child) and for himself decades ago. You wouldn't happen to be a grumpy old Greek man named Sotiris, would you?

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pierzstyx t1_itfft8j wrote

The Tale of Middle Earth Rapunzel is great!

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imapassenger1 t1_itfbuj8 wrote

Was it published that far back? I thought it was new when I read it in about 1991. It's the only one I read after Unfinished Tales.

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Jealous-Ambassador-8 t1_itfdssi wrote

Pretty sure I got it from the library in middle school. So between 80 and 83…

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imapassenger1 t1_itff12m wrote

I've got out my copy of Unfinished Tales and that was published in 1982. Maybe that was it.

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Jealous-Ambassador-8 t1_itffneo wrote

Possibly? I don’t have my copy on hand so I can’t check. But I’m pretty sure it was Lost Tales.

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pierzstyx t1_itffyfz wrote

Tevildo really isn't anything like Sauron. That would be Thu the Necromancer and Lord of Werewolves. Tevildo does show us just how much Tolkien hated cats though. Dude was very much a dog person.

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foul_dwimmerlaik t1_itgvvej wrote

He occupies the same narrative space as Sauron (keeping Beren in his dungeons/kitchen to be rescued by Luthien and Huan) so I think it counts. It’s just too funny an idea.

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Jimjams101 t1_itf7c7b wrote

I tried to read this in high school for an English assignment and I hated every minute of it. But I had no context about what it was supposed to be and that was like 20 years ago pre good internet. Maybe it’s time I try again.

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sweetspringchild t1_itfb3j1 wrote

It felt like trying to read the Bible except the Bible at least has a historical value in the real world. Never got past the first few pages of Bible either. Some books shall have to remain unread.

(Just looking for a kindred spirit to commiserate on our shared hate and suffering, not trying to ruin anyone's enjoyment. I am genuinely happy for people who enjoyed Silimarillion, it's not always easy finding the next book you're going to love.)

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phasestep t1_itfcbxb wrote

It's like reading the Bible if you had zero cultural or historical context. Like we picked an alien off another planet, taught them our alphabet and then gave them this book and said "it's a really good read!"

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pierzstyx t1_itfg2pv wrote

Really, it's almost nothing like reading the Bible. It is more like if someone handed you a book of Greek myths and told you to read it.

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phasestep t1_itfg9o5 wrote

The closest I've come is reading Indian mythology. I don't know the names or places and some of the ideas are totally foreign. And that's with me already having a vague idea of India and it's people. You don't even have that with Tolkien

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Jimjams101 t1_itfdgzy wrote

Boy, it was tough when I was 17 trying to get through it. Like quite depressing.

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TimelyEvidence t1_itgfdep wrote

This was my experience. All the more power to folks who enjoy this book but it was too much for me.

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annomandaris t1_itjhw1p wrote

I just skipped the making of the music, and it was so much better. Then after i knew the story and characters, the music made more sense and was enjoyable.

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pojmalkavian t1_itfkbs6 wrote

What are your thoughts on Valar doing jack shit throughout the book?

How about Feanor, do you feel he did little wrong or nothing wrong?

Was Fingolfin challenging Morgoth to a fight the most badass moment in the book?

Is Turin the most important character in the book?

Are you going to skip "of Beleriand and its kingdoms" on subsequent reads?

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Tenorius OP t1_itfqzn5 wrote

The Valar have a communication problem... if they just talked with people, half of the problems would not happen.

Feanor is an absolut prick and i thank him for it. When he appears the book becomes interesting.

To me the guy in the space ship killing the biggest dragon is the most badass. Fingolfin is a close runner up.

Turin was one of my favorites stories in the book.

Yes i will hahaha.

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Qlabalex t1_itgc04o wrote

There is a separate book that is a novelization of turins story called "Children of Hurin" that is an excellent more in depth telling of his story. I read that before reading the silmarillion and it made it so much more enjoyable having been introduced to characters and locations in an actual story. There are also novels for Beren and Luthian as well as The Fall of Gondolin. I believe Christopher tolkien put them together only a few years ago before he died

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swarmofseals t1_itgjnoi wrote

I haven't gotten to Beren and Luthien yet but The Fall of Gondolin is fantastic. It's not just the story, but several versions of the story (some incomplete) written at different times with notes and comparisons by Christopher Tolkien. It's both a great story (or at least a shell of one) and a really interesting window into Tolkien's process. It's also a bit depressing in that it's clear that there was amazing work in there -- it seems like he could have developed many of the stories in The Silmarillion into legitimate novels or novellas in their own right -- but lost heart in doing so because he despaired of them ever getting published. From The Fall of Gondolin it seems like even LotR was in doubt for a time because it was too close to the story of The Silmarillion rather than The Hobbit, which is what the publishers wanted.

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Steved_hams t1_ithdn8j wrote

Beren and Luthien was my favorite part of the Silmarillion! Is the separate book a retelling in more depth?

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Qlabalex t1_ithe82f wrote

I believe it's more in depth, it may be like the other comment described the fall of gondolin book where it has multiple drafts and notes from Chris tolkien on his father's work

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Qlabalex t1_iti2eyp wrote

This comment got me to finally take my copy of Beren and Luthian off the shelf. The first 40 pages is all preface from Christopher and some necessary background detail on morgoth and elves of the first age. The remaining 200 pages seem to be the most complete form of beren and luthian possible made by stringing together excerpts of his father's writings that mention them into a complete narrative. many of the chapters seem to have a paragraph or two, usually at the beginning and end, with commentary from Christopher on why he chose to use that excerpt or where it came from. So not exactly a seemless novel but if you liked the story there is certainly more of it and some insights into tolkiens writing. Also the copy I have from a 3 books set called the great tales of middle earth has some pretty great illustrations as well

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Steved_hams t1_iu2allp wrote

Cool! Definitely gonna have to seek out that series. Thanks

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huscarl86 t1_itfuc6j wrote

When you consider the Valar are to some extent avatars of elemental forces, them sitting on their arses while Morgoth runs amok makes a bit more sense. Because each and every time they intervene to help Elves and Men it results in catastrophic destruction to the very fabric of the world.

Even in the War of Wrath, where the bulk of the fighting appears to have been done by the Maiar (lesser angelic beings) and the Elves of Valinor rather than the Valar themselves, the collatoral damage required to bring down Morgoth is still enough to sink an entire continent.

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Allarius1 t1_itgpp3h wrote

I thought that had more to do with that fact that Morgoth “wove” himself into the fabric of arda. So it would be impossible to defeat him without causing irreparable damage.

Kind of like the old gods from WoW.

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OnePostDude t1_itkjj9t wrote

this is correct as Sauron is also woven into middleearth but only in limited account

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pojmalkavian t1_itfv1vo wrote

The collateral damage is required if the most evil of evil that ever evil-ed is to be defeated.

They sat on their asses while Morgoth enslaved, killed and destroyed men, elves and the same Middle-Earth that the supposed guardians of Eru's creations were to protect. Eventually, they do have to intervene to bring him down, so why not do it eariler to prevent destruction and lost lives up to that point?

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pelicanontheroof t1_itr242u wrote

The Valar aren't perfect either, and can make mistakes. Also remember, in the beginning, Melkor was stronger than all other Valar combined. The Valar did intervene swiftly after discovering the Elves when they invited them to Aman to protect them from Melkor. While that may seem an obvious thing to do, in the long term it might not actually have been the best idea. The first mistake might have been creating Aman at all, and living apart from Middle Earth. The second mistake might have been inviting the Elves to leave Middle Earth and come live with them there. It is implied that, counterintuitive as it might seem, in the long term it might have been better for the Elves to have stayed in Middle Earth. Maybe that might have prevented the corruption of men (humans) in the first place, among other things.

I keep saying "might," because it's impossible to know for sure. The string of causation is impossibly vast and complex. The point is that even something which seems obviously the right thing to do might not actually be.

But really your question can basically be boiled down to, "Why does evil and suffering exist at all?"

If God/Eru Ilúvatar is so all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, why create a being like Melkor in the first place? Why even permit the existence of anything that has the potential to go wrong?

That's just a mystery. Nobody, not even the Valar, knows that. There is only the assurance that no matter how terrible and hopeless things may seem, there is no evil or suffering for which there won't ultimately be justice, because everything has its source in Eru:

"Thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Also when Feanor rebels against the Valar and rejects their summons:

"When the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Fëanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: ‘So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'

But Mandos said: ‘And yet remain evil. To me shall Fëanor come soon.’"

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Thargelion t1_itfo9cu wrote

Fëanor did absolutely nothing wrong. The Kinslaying at Alqualondë never happened, and even if it did, the Teleri deserved it.

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pojmalkavian t1_itfovoc wrote

Those assholes absolutely deserved it. Just give him the fucking boats, he is only chasing after the most evil being in the world while the literal gods of the world are twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing.

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NirnaethArnoediad t1_iti3mdl wrote

Haha, I actually quite enjoy "Of Beleriand and it's Realms" nowadays.

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pojmalkavian t1_iti71a3 wrote

Hey, you are a better person than me. I find it physically exhausting to read, a geography textbook crossed with dictionaries because the good professor wanted to indulge in his language fetishism and decided to name every toponym in the book in multiple languages.

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lornstar7 t1_itf222a wrote

Speechless because reading used every word you have plus some you didn't know you had? But kidding aside I really enjoyed it and I wish I had thought to use companion information while reading it

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Fiyanggu t1_itfihup wrote

Tolkien stands alone. All those super popular, more recent authors don't hold a candle to him. And they know it as well because they actively choose to make their writing un-Tolkien.

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leegunter t1_itflaqp wrote

When I was a young man I tried to read The Silmarillion and did not finish it. I wanted to understand, to link together, to track everything like there was going to be a test.

Years later I picked it up again. There was an introduction that stated that the book has errors. There were contradictions from one story to another. That the book is best read for the enjoyment of the stories, not to learn and study.

So I read it again. And I count it as one of the 5 best books I've ever read.

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phoenixtrilobite t1_itfbwzb wrote

The Silmarilion is a hard book to love as a casual reader, and that's partly because it was such a labor of love by the author. You need to be as swept up in Middle Earth as Tolkien was to appreciate its every nuance, and if you aren't prepared for it you can easily get overwhelmed by just how much nuance and complexity there is. I'd say that being enchanted by the Lord of the Rings is almost definitely a prerequisite for enjoying this book.

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cefalea1 t1_itgoo7i wrote

Idk, I read the first book of LoTR and found it kind of boring. However I was completely enchanted when reading The Silmarillion and it is one of my favorite books to date.

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No_Technician1257 t1_ith39r8 wrote

Me too. I first read The Hobbit and LOTR and, although I liked them, when I really went crazy for Tolkien was when I read The Children of Húrin, from there I went on to The Silmarillion and there it stayed as my favorite book.

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pierzstyx t1_itfg6aa wrote

The Ainulindalë is one of the most beautiful pieces of fiction that I've ever read.

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droppinkn0wledge t1_itfo6ru wrote

The Ainulindale is English at its most beautiful.

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Kenbishi t1_itg09m0 wrote

Oddly enough, some of the better Middle-Earth UMS maps that people made for the original StarCraft game really helped bring it to life for me.

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LiliTiger t1_itf85cf wrote

I'm kind of weird about finishing books even if I don't like them. This is one of the few books I haven't finished after starting. Tried to read it as a teen in the late 90s and just couldn't keep track of everything well enough and rage quit.

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Steved_hams t1_ithe46x wrote

I had the same experience at first. Started ot years ago, love the Ainulindale but couldn't get much further. Finally picked it up again this year and finished it. The key for me was: you're never going to keep up with each and every character, so don't try. You don't really need to know exactly who is who at every moment

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Diligent_Island_6266 t1_itgf88s wrote

Im currently reading 1984 now and when im finished Silmarilion is next in line. Your post makes me more excited. Can’t wait!!

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Ok_Construction298 t1_itfmjjc wrote

I had the same experience while I read it ...the details and beauty of the history....the world building...but it doesn't read like a novel.....it's basically a compendium of all his ideas and imagination it felt very real....once you get into it it's immersive...

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Loecdances t1_itffltn wrote

Absolutely love The Silmarillion, after having read it a few times I've started listening to the audibook. It's a different experience and also totally immersive! Highly recommended.

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BoazCorey t1_itfgb8u wrote

I always thought the creation story with those beings who form the physical universe with their songs was beautiful.

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ClearWaves t1_itgnxt3 wrote

I love it. And on a pleasant side note, the audiobook makes going to sleep much faster. It's like, I would actually have to concentrate to keep up with who is whose father and where they are going and why. But when I am sleepy and it just drones on in the background it's very soothing. I currently listen to it almost every night. And the next morning I have no idea what chapter I listened to, so I get to do it all over again.

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No_Technician1257 t1_ith2d3t wrote

The Silmarillion is my favorite book. Now you have to reread it a couple of times to grasp many more things and to read smoothly haha. I have already reread it four times and will continue to do so :P

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floatoverblow t1_ith2sm1 wrote

I joke about it being a totally impenetrable clusterfuck all the time but I'm glad there are people that can enjoy it despite having more names in it than the unabridged US census haha.

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AoiTopGear t1_itg17u3 wrote

I had to give up Silmarillion after few chapters. It had so many names that I couldnt make head or tails

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Qlabalex t1_itgdpxa wrote

It really is the literary equivalent of math homework. There's so much to try to wrap your head around at first it's a terrible slog and I don't blame people for not enjoying it. But after putting in the work for awhile it just clicks and it's so satisfying seeing everything just sort of work.

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Steved_hams t1_ithenqk wrote

I managed to make my way through it by giving up on keeping track of every character

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lordoftheborg t1_ith11qi wrote

I just bought that book, good tip!

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thenewcomputer t1_ith2rin wrote

so glad you finished it; this is probably my favorite book of all time

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Pudding_Hero t1_ith61kz wrote

Now the Rings of Power makes sense I’m sure

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EVEOpalDragon t1_ithc1s2 wrote

I had a friend tell me it was worth a watch if you keep it on mute.

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Professional-Pea-103 t1_ithhv41 wrote

I am absolutely loving reading all of the things that you guys are reading

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ouija147 t1_iti8iin wrote

I'm not worthy. I get to about the same spot every time and it's like forget it. My first try was in 1980. It gets to be Bible like with begats after begats and I just can't

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msalerno1965 t1_itid4n3 wrote

Tolkien's writings ruined me for all other fantasy novels at the age of 12.

Nothing compares. And TBH, if something does, I don't want to find out!

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Dana07620 t1_itijtpl wrote

And now you know why it's my favorite of the core 5 books.

Next time you re-read LotR, you'll understand so many references that you didn't understand before.

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tlr92 t1_itikbjc wrote

My husband just read this and it was basically his exact sentiments! He was a little lost in the beginning and said he was struggling to follow but in the end loved it!

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FailureToProduce t1_itil6n3 wrote

It keeps getting better and better the more you read it!

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spyczech t1_itjplbx wrote

I always avoided it because I assumed it would be a hassle, but listening you describe it reminds me of parts I enjoyed studying history in college. In a way it probably would tingle that interpretative part of my brain that I enjoyed when looking at primary source texts

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CanadianCultureKings t1_itm3tqw wrote

So very glad for you, the Silmarillion is my favourite book ever written, and Tolkien my favourite author now also. The Silmarillion rocks! X)

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MrSillmarillion t1_itfe5yd wrote

Welcome to my world! It will forever be epic!

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Greenery72 t1_itftj7b wrote

Hi , Great choice,! Next, if you hadn't already, C S. Lewis' Book #1 in the Chronicles of Narnia, The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe,which was published in 1955 , and work up In the series from there! Thanks

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Tenorius OP t1_itfurn6 wrote

I think i will pause any fantasy readings for a while... as a fan of the genre i feel like any fantasy story will pale when compared to tolkiens world.

My goal now is to read some classics like all quiet on western front and get a sense of what tolkien experienced in the WW1

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scottostanek t1_itgjvvu wrote

If you want to go non fantasy but still interested in Tolkien’s work ( and C. S. Lewis as well) dig up a copy of The Inklings, which goes into detail of those two and few more as professors exchanging letters about their works while at Oxford. It explained how those times going into Mordor equated with Tolkien’s experiences in trenches : sword of the Westerness = American rifle, elven cloak= trench coat, dwarven mail = British uniform, and he was from Lancanshire. Did a report on it in Highschool and it stuck with me.

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EricBlair101 t1_itgc3d8 wrote

Yeah I read it with the Tolkien wiki open on my computer next to me lol I needed the reference but once I had that, it really revealed the massive scope of the mythology and it really was a truly epic story!

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durgadas t1_ith44yj wrote

I don't recall a character named An Map. I'll have to look again! haha

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JohnLease t1_itixfs9 wrote

It's not a good read, unless you like reading elvish

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NotSethRoganForSure t1_itfwfpt wrote

What’s it about there was once a quest in a game I played called silmaril

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