Submitted by donjohndijon t3_yezq9p in books

I read Ender's Game in high-school and it was immediately a favorite. But when I read more in the series I was disappointed. I couldn't find anything like the high paced, action packed story. Some had action but less, and others were just completely actionless and slow; at least they were to an impatient high-school kid. Or maybe I just picked the wrong books from the series, I certainly didn't try them all. But it was enough to put me off Orson Scott Card.

I finally came back to him and started reading a few books I've found on Hoopla(free!). I've now read(listened to) at least 3 different series including the Mither Mages series, the Pathfinder trilogy, the Side Step series, and the Micropowers novels. I enjoyed all of these but the first two of the aforementioned I would strongly recommend to anyone.

But he has a lot more I haven't read. Ranging from sci-fi to fantasy and possibly more.

So check out The Gate Theif or Pathfinder, and if you enjoy them, keep going.

*Edit- It has been brought to my attention that Card is a Mormon (which I do think I had heard before, but it seemed irrelevant.) He served on the board of the National Organization for Marriage Equality( who actively fought to keep bans on gay marriage.) His comments on homosexuality go even further than the Organization on who's board he served. The simple sum of his opinions is that gay people are not 'acceptable, equal citizens.' This is an article that discusses the ethics of boycotting a work because of the creator's view. The article is about the Ender's Game movie but it discusses Cards views primarily but gives some other examples. Personally, this is the first time I've had to choose whether or not to buy something from a creator with views I consider horrible. I suppose I was able to give up chic fila..



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simonf75 t1_iu1gzlc wrote

Or not read anything of Card's ever again.

In fact I strongly suggest that.


itsDeeksters t1_iu4epmv wrote

So we can’t say that he’s a piece of shit but his books are good?


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1k42l wrote

How does that help anyone?

What purpose would it serve me?

What effect would it have on anyone or anything?

Have you read any of his works? How many?

Even Hitler has a book in the library. Card's book may not have gay people but nothing I've read has had anti gay messaging.

  • edit I'm asking all of you who are downvoting me to please also answer any of these questions- I am seriously interested in an answer.

Escaho t1_iu1lbzo wrote

I know you've since learned about Card's personal beliefs, but I'd just like to comment on my experience.

I read Ender's Game when I was 15 years old. I loved it. It was my favorite book for a long time (until I was 21 when I read Dracula for the first time). I still think of it as an excellent novel, with brisk pacing, good characterization, great themes and motifs, and perhaps most importantly, a work that is perfect for young adults (teenagers) because the language isn't too complex and the work is very easy to read because of how engrossing it is.

Unfortunately, that all came crashing down in my early 20s when I learned of Card's personal beliefs. See, I'm someone who studied English and would love to be able to separate the art from the artist. This concept is very easy to do when the artist is dead--after all, they can no longer espouse hateful beliefs and write further works that may or may not contain such messaging. However, when the artist is still alive, we run into the problem where purchasing work by these artists sends money directly into their pockets, allowing them to continue to preach from their soapbox some extremely hateful things.

As a gay man who didn't fully accept himself until my early 20s, hearing about how Card would rather have me killed or cease to exist than be a fan of his works was heartbreaking. How could someone be so hateful? How could someone--a fellow artist, no less--not see me as a person, just like him, who wants to be creative and spread excitement and inspiration in the world?

After that, I could never buy another one of his works, and will never do so in the future.


psibomber t1_iu23ihg wrote

Card wrote Songmaster, which was about gay characters, claimed he had gay friends, and denied being homophobic.

I spent time in my early 20s too reading through the arguments against him. As far as I remember, he made one remark that could be interpreted as homophobic, and got pretty much canceled before the time of cancel culture. I don't think he was that hateful at all then, but the years and the public's treatment of him has probably worn him down.

I don't remember if he joined mormonism before or after his homophobic remark, but I've always been of the opinion that someone who did not like him ruined his public reputation and he was not as homophobic as people made it seem back then. Is he more homophobic now after what happened? Who knows.


Escaho t1_iu2ac51 wrote

He made "one remark that could be interpreted as homophobic"?

Here, I'll link you directly to an essay that Card published in 1990 (when he was 39 years old). It is entitled, "The Hypocrites of Homosexuality."

Card prefaces the essay by explaining that anyone using it to attack him as a homophobe clearly doesn't understand the context of the essay, specifically, a 1986 Georgia law prohibiting sodomy in the privacy of one's own home being constitutional. Additionally, he attempts to ground his essay in the beliefs of the Mormon Church, believing that this will shroud him a veil of protection for his own beliefs because he's just reiterating those of the church he frequents and supports.

But Card has significant problematic opinions in his essay. I will point out a few for reference:

>(Par. 1) I did learn that for most of [the homosexual community,] their highest allegiance was to their membership in the community that gave them access to sex.
>(Par. 2) And when one's life is given over to one community that demands utter allegiance, it cannot be given to another. The LDS church is one such community. The homosexual community seems to be another. And when I read the statements of those who claim to be both LDS and homosexual, trying to persuade the former community to cease making their membership contingent upon abandoning the latter, I wonder if they realize that the price of such "tolerance" would be, in the long run, the destruction of the Church.

See, because Card fundamentally believes that partaking in homosexual tendencies and homosexual acts is a sin, one cannot both be a follower of the Mormon church and someone who partakes in homosexual acts. He views the two as separate communities, and believes that someone who is homosexual can only adhere to one.

Notice how, throughout the entire essay, he avoids mentioning how one can easily be both heterosexual and a follower of the Mormon church. Basically, if you are male, it's completely fine to date women and have sex with your wife as much as you want, but if you are gay, you cannot date men nor get married to another man nor have sex with another man and still be a member of the church.

>(Par. 4) The argument by the hypocrites of homosexuality that homosexual tendencies are genetically ingrained in some individuals is almost laughably irrelevant. We are all genetically predisposed toward some sin or another; we are all expected to control those genetic predispositions when it is possible.

Here, Card tries to point out that it doesn't matter if homosexuality is genetically ingrained in an individual since birth--what matters is whether or not they 'act' on it. He tries to further explain that, much like when he was a 15-year old teenager, he also had urges to have sex, but was encouraged to fight against those urges. He explains that youth are forgiven for their transgressions, but that adults are not (and should not) be forgiven for failing to resist these urges (unless otherwise happily married).

>(Par. 5)Are we somehow cruel and overdomineering when we teach young men and young women that their lives will be better and happier if they have no memory of sexual intercourse with others to deal with when they finally are married? On the contrary, we would be heartless and cruel if we did not.

It's fine if we teach young men and women not to have sex until they are married, Card explains. Just so long as, when they grow up and finally get married, they are one man and one woman, and not two men or two women (or two LGBTQ+).

>(2008 article) No matter how sexually attracted a man might be toward other men, or a woman toward other women, and no matter how close the bonds of affection and friendship might be within same-sex couples, there is no act of court or Congress that can make these relationships the same as the coupling between a man and a woman.

And in 2008, Card published an article that gay marriage marked "the end of democracy in America." See, as long as homosexuals never act on their attraction to members of the same sex, and they follow all the ideals of the church, and if they choose to marry, they only do so to someone of the opposite sex, then that's fine!

Sorry, Card can try and hide behind the Church's beliefs in order to shield himself from the outcry of bigotry thrust upon him, but it's quite evident that his personal opinion is that homosexuals are acceptable in society so long as they never act on their attractions (ever) and, should they choose to get married, it must be to someone of the opposite sex. The man believed that gay marriage ruined democracy in his country for Christ's sake.


psibomber t1_iu2cl92 wrote

Sad. It sounds like he was hinting originally gay but got brainwashed by the mormon church. Thank you for clarifying


valgerth t1_iugridi wrote

Songmaster...the book where the gay character having an orgasm makes him permanently impotent and he kills himself? Yep, definitely an ally.


psibomber t1_iuj7eaj wrote

I see it differently it almost reads like a gay romance up till that point it sounded like the author understood what it is to be a man and love another man romantically but something caused him pain like a broken heart or didn't know to use lube correctly or something lol.

Then he got brainwashed to mormonism.

It's a tragedy, really.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1mkkg wrote

To be fair, he didn't say you weren't a person. Just that you shouldn't consider yourself an equal person.

I'm joking. It's beyond abhorrent. I also don't think I can ever give him money again.

But I do wonder, how do you feel about reading books you own?


lohdunlaulamalla t1_iuhtzix wrote

>But I do wonder, how do you feel about reading books you own?

Bit late to this thread, but I can chime in here. Learning about Card's beliefs made me not want to read his books anymore, even though I'd enjoyed some of them.

I only ever had his books on Kindle, but I used to own several novels by a somewhat famous author from my country, who eventually came out as a racist and misogynistic asshole. The kind that gives speeches at rallyes. That was reason enough for me to ban him from my shelves, because I knew I wouldn't read those books again and I didn't want to be associated with his bigotry or seen to be tacitly endorcing his views by keeping them. Originally I'd planned to sell them and donate the proceeds to a charity that works with female refugees, but I couldn't find a second hand shop willing to take them. In the end, they landed in the trash and good riddance.

I haven't been able to stay away from my Harry Potter audiobooks, but I make a point not to spend any money on their author. No movie tickets, no "first hand" buying of books or merchandise.


donjohndijon OP t1_iuhzcf4 wrote

Yeah. I think it varies for me too. Not the money part, but the enjoying part.


AmberJFrost t1_iu3hmar wrote

In the series that follows Bean, Card does have a gay man Realize He Was Wrong And Deviant, and suddenly Become Straight because That's What People Do.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu430o5 wrote


What book?

Thank you for actually responding


AmberJFrost t1_iu43ga0 wrote

I don't remember - I trashed all of them a few years ago. It wasn't Ender's Shadow - it might've been Shadow of the Hegemon or Shadow Puppets. I'm pretty sure it was before Shadow of the Giant. The geneticist who made Bean what he was, and then worked with Bean and Petra (by lying about a lot of things).


valgerth t1_iugqrsp wrote

It's in his Homecoming series. It's like a sci fi Book of Morman.

Edit: Shit I just remembered he also does it with Anton in the Shadow series too which is the one they'd have been talking about.


donjohndijon OP t1_iuhil1h wrote

Oh I figured the morman stuff wasn't gonna be for me lol.. long before I knew he hated gay people.


WhatAClownManMobile t1_iu1kcoc wrote

Oh buddy. Oh man. You’ll hit it soon enough


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1lnz8 wrote

Hit what?

I wasn't trying to argue with you. There's no need to be smug and dismissive


valgerth t1_iugqpa2 wrote

I've read almost everything thing he's written. He has a gay character that he has marry a woman and have kids because the "good of the future" in his weird Mormon sci fi series. He has another man and women get married about of political obligation/a witches curse, but it's OK because they fall in love anyway. He literally wrote a series that is built upon justifying having literally all the children, because apparently being the seventh son of a seventh son is the most OP shit. If you can't see where his religion just fully bleeds of the page you aren't paying attention. And if we're being honest once he gets a bit into a series his solution to everything is to throw everything out the window and get weird with it(science always gets weirdly magical, and just very deus ex machina). And let's not forget his two book love letter into turning the US into an empire mirroring the shift from republic that Rome had. I can elaborate on specifics if you'd like, but even separate from that this is a man who has very vocally advocated against rights for a sizable chunk of the real world population.


killer_of_whales t1_iu0wonh wrote

Many people find him an odious character.


Slave35 t1_iu19mks wrote

His beliefs are inconsistent with a just and moral society. I believe this has tainted his writing past redemption. There are some celebrities where I can see through that to their talents; I enjoy Tom Cruise as an actor for instance; but most writers do not get a pass for the irreparable damage their works can cause.


AmberJFrost t1_iu3hui2 wrote

Creators often wind up putting those odious beliefs into their worldbuilding, or showing opposite beliefs only as wrong/evil. So yeah, I can enjoy some things with Cruise because he's simply acting the part created by someone else. But a creator? Nope. It's why I can't do Bill Cosby sketches any longer.

For writers, I can't read Card, Eddings, MZB, Anthony, or JKR. ALL of them put their gross (and sometimes criminal) worldviews into their worldbuilding.


Contentiblereddit t1_iu3j5tj wrote

His writing contains those beliefs. In Ender's Game he explicitly says women are unsuited for command, and the girl was an anomaly. The Bean series is just rampant Islamophobia. And I think in the end the super soldier woman (girl from Ender's Game) ended up just wanting to pop out babies. Which is a fine goal to have in life, but with the context clues of Card I think we can take a pretty solid guess that's all he thinks women are good for.


darwinwoodka t1_iu11sb7 wrote

Used to enjoy his work. I've met him twice, the first time he was friendly and charming, the second he had turned into a very bitter person it seemed. He really wrote beautifully but I've ended up giving his books away even though they were signed because I couldn't stand how he had changed and the things he says now.


mildlyconfused25 t1_iu1aw9v wrote

lol these are all ridiculous sentiments.. but you do you.. someone must be happy with your give.


darwinwoodka t1_iu1f3mj wrote

And that's fine, but they were making me feel bad about him every time I looked at them. I prefer to remember how the books made me feel when I read them, when he seemed to have an understanding and caring viewpoint, before he turned into a hateful little small brained man.


ViolettaHunter t1_iu1br1m wrote

I found his view on humans in Ender's Game absolutely odious. Wasn't surprised later to read he had questionable opinions in general.


fleet_of_ideas t1_iu3lpjb wrote

You should post this where people judge book by its content rather than author's personal opinions.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu42vea wrote

I understand not wanting to support the guy financially.. but I don't understand pretending he doesn't exist


rjs246 t1_iu1yini wrote

Ender’s Game was fantastic. A legit classic.

Card is a grade-A regressive nut job who will never see one red cent of my money. Fuck him.


MonaSherry t1_iu1c8cj wrote

Put Songmaster on your list!


Bleu_Superficiel t1_iu1v8cn wrote

I read it as a teenager, so i might have missed something. Yet i remember the main character is involved in a homosexual relationship, and it was not described as being a bad thing

If there is a Mormon takes on his books i would rather see it for women sometime being submissive


AmberJFrost t1_iu3hwze wrote

Women always wind up realizing they just need to submit to a man and make his babies. It's why I got rid of all my Card books. I'm tired of that crap.


FredR23 t1_iu1deru wrote

Card is deplorable.

It's very hard to believe he even wrote the first couple Ender books.

Dude's a proud nazi - overlooking shit like that is a no-go.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1fl2f wrote

He's a Nazi?

I don't know why that's hard to believe.. but I guess it wouldn't be if I hadn't read much more than that..

Well balls... I'm not gonna stop enjoying art that I enjoy because the creator was horrible... I know it's a pretty hot trend but I can't imagine the amount of loved art that would be lost.

I can and should (and will) certainly stop funding him though..


ObscureMemes69420 t1_iu1g52v wrote

People are just trying to cancel and smear him because they dont like his religion and worldview. Its very sad and you hate to see it


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1j8j7 wrote

Dude. Read the link in my edit. He doesn't think gay people should be equal citizens.

I'm not saying these crazy people calling him a 'proud nazi' aren't completely moronic. But he does have some fucked up ideas


AmishTechno t1_iu1kxpi wrote

And uses his platform and power to push them. He's not quietly in his house thinking "fuck the gays!" He's joining anti-gay groups. He's leading anti-gay groups. He's publishing anti-gay essays.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1lli2 wrote

Yes. And he has less effect than other because his views are more extreme than the fucking Mormon church. Not a little bit either, he doesn't think we should have repealed laws against homosexuality. Repugnant.

But he also sat on the board of a national organization fighting gay marriage, having actual consequence.


AmishTechno t1_iu1m5jp wrote

Yeah, my point is, if you make a post about him and say his stuff is good, then that might influence a dozen people to buy his book. This, adding to his ability to rain his hatred down on our society.

Once he's dead and gone, if his estate is no longer linked to hate groups, then fine.

As long as he's living and getting money off of his products, we should ignore him.


ObscureMemes69420 t1_iu1nva2 wrote

I personally dont agree with him of course, but man can say what he wants 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think you should always separate art from artist


Cautemoc t1_iu2fbd0 wrote

When they are dead, yes. When the money you pay for their product goes into their pockets, no.


AmishTechno t1_iu1kt5r wrote

Yeah, if he held private views that were contradictory to mine, I'd still be fine with it to an extent. But, he campaigns for anti-gay laws. He actively pursues positions of power within organizations of anti-gay stances. He uses his platform to push his positions. Fuck everything about him.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1l9d2 wrote

So you don't read him?

I agree, giving him money is like giving money to chic fila. It's going to support campaigns to ban gay marriage. If he had the support he'd also campaign to make being gay a crime (read the link in my update.) So yeah, horrible human, sure. But why should I not enjoy books I already own, as so many others insist?


AmishTechno t1_iu1lt3v wrote

I read enders game once. I then found out what kind of person he was..

Now, I will not read his stuff, buy his stuff, or condone the consumption of his stuff .

That is correct.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1mzbf wrote

Can you tell me why? Is it just an intrinsic hatred for him? Or do you think that consuming his stuff (for example, someone re reading enders game after discovering he's a monster) has some effect on either that person or the world?


AmishTechno t1_iu1nstd wrote

No. I totally agree that if you already have the intellectual property in your possession, then it's not bad. If you had an old bill Cosby stand up special on VHS and watched it, you would be doing no harm. Same with Card.

Personally, I just don't want to read anything he wrote, because he's slimy. Same with, say, Spacey. No thanks. I own American beauty on DVD. But I'm not going watch it again. It would make me feel gross and wrong.

That's all.


ChimoEngr t1_iu4cw53 wrote

It's a bit more than just not liking his worldview. I find his world view evil, and something that should be erased from the world. One way to do that, is to diminish the platform he has to project that. It's all about the marketplace of ideas, and his ideas don't sell well.


Julian_Caesar t1_iu4iqjy wrote

>It's very hard to believe he even wrote the first couple Ender books.

Speaker for the Dead in particular. Literally feels impossible.


FredR23 t1_iu4zp6y wrote

Truly - the language doesn't seem to be Card's at all. The whole things stinks to high heaven.


Julian_Caesar t1_iu573tc wrote

Oh haha that's what you meant. I never even thought of it that way. I'd believe it though.

I remember when he first started being more public about his views, there was a theory that he'd had a stroke and tried to keep it hidden. That's how surprised everyone was.


FredR23 t1_iu5v857 wrote

The stroke idea is fairly sound - I've seen that happen with other authors. Clive Barker's massive decline seems due to the blood poisoning and health issues he's had (along with a lot of trauma - some of his causing).

My money was on Card having some scheme to take credit from a ghost writer at the beginning of his publishing career.


nursejackieoface t1_iu1d0wc wrote

For 21 years I waited for the sequel to Lovelock, then the co-writer died. Card is a piece of shit so I don't know if I would even want to read anything else by him.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1fqoi wrote

I just found out about his being a piece of shit... honestly didn't know a thing about him. Definitely would have reconsidered this post.


nursejackieoface t1_iu1im9u wrote

I try to separate the art from the artist, but Card, Eric Clapton, and Van Morrison are testing me.


Yonk_art t1_iu1lui6 wrote

I find it easier to separate the art and the artist if the artist doesn't inject their views into the art in an overt way. Like, I'm into black metal, and the scene has a lot of douches. It's sometimes hard to find the artists without even just ties to problematic musicians but at least if their lyrics aren't hateful I can just not pay for the music or go to their shows.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1kf64 wrote

Ok, let's just drop this topic. I've love Van.. crazy as he is.. or at least, crazy as I know he is...


Ineffable7980x t1_iu1en7t wrote

Speaker for the Dead remains one of my favorite sci fi novels of all time.

I have heard the Alvin Maker series is worth checking out.

You're going to get a lot flack from people on this sub about him. As a gay man, I don't get it. I don't care one whit about his personal beliefs. For me, all that matters is the text.


Colmillitos t1_iu1ml0b wrote

Speaker for the dead is by far his best book in my opinion. It is a whole different type of book than ender's game so I get why people who loved the first one didnt enjoy this one as much.

Ender's game to me is just a fun fast paced story with a good final twist

I read a couple of his more "mormon" books and the most interesting part to me was seeing how It looked like propaganda


ChimoEngr t1_iu4depz wrote

So you're happy giving money and compliments to a person who thinks that you shouldn't exist, nor have equal rights?


Ineffable7980x t1_iu4f6ws wrote

An author's personal convictions rarely affect my reading decisions. It would be different if there were anti-gay sentiment in the Ender books, but there isn't. I know because I have read them all.

You do what you think is right, and I'll do what works for me.


mundane_coconut47 t1_iu18o9u wrote

I highly recommend pastwatch for anyone who enjoys alternate history/time travel related books.


capnjon t1_iu193pk wrote

Ahh, I've never read anyone else that read this book! It was a great one - I read it about 10 years ago and I still think of it often.


MonaSherry t1_iu1butv wrote

Me too. It was really good. This one in particular makes me scratch my head about how Card can hold the hateful politics he has and still write such morally nuanced novels.


mundane_coconut47 t1_iu1wevn wrote

Yeah you can dislike cards personal and political views while still appreciating his books.


Imapancakenom t1_iu3nme1 wrote

It's because he has much good in his soul, but religion has shaped his outer shell into an awful bigot


MissyBee63 t1_iu17rzp wrote

I haven’t read any of the other series. Thx for the recommendation.


AmberJFrost t1_iu3hjw8 wrote

Tbh, I quit reading Card's work because every female character has the same arc. She's strong and powerful and then realizes what she really needs is to find a man to submit to and make babies. It's the same arc the (very few) gay characters in his book have - they realize they Are Wrong and Make Babies.

If you want to read other great sci fi, check out Sheryl Tepper (Grass or Raising the Stones), Le Guin (Left Hand of Darkness), Asimov's short stories, Weber's Honor Harrington (stop at around 8, he loses the thread), Campbell, and Scalzi.


erikthepink t1_iuer0q3 wrote

Sherri Tepper! I enjoyed all of her books but Grass and Raising the Stones are favorites.


AmberJFrost t1_iues914 wrote

I'm actually not a huge fan of Grass, but it seemed like a good fit here. I much prefer Raising the Stones and Left Hand of Darkness - they're probably my two faves.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu435s6 wrote

Oh wow. Not in Pathfinder. Or gate theif

Thanks for the recommendations


owensum t1_iu1oqu1 wrote

I have read his writing books How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy and also Characters and Viewpoint. They are tremendously good and insightful, and Card comes across as being a generous, thoughtful human. I find it hard, if not impossible, to square with some of the things that he says now, but that's how some people change I guess.


squarefan80 t1_iu1vdxk wrote

OSC also co-wrote a great point n’click adventure game from back in the day called The Dig. the other co-writer? Steven Spielberg. that game is one of my favorites!


Ordinary-Afternoon-7 t1_iu1yfd3 wrote

I'm with everyone else, I'm conflicted about giving him money, but I really enjoyed Pastwatch and the Alvin Maker series. Maybe keep an eye out for them in a used bookstore?


Pavs_8 t1_iu2pl21 wrote

I'd actually recommend reading The Worthing Saga because it's interesting, weird, and makes clear who Card is and lays out his philosophies on life pretty clearly. I read the series 20 years ago right after reading and loving Ender's Game. 19 year old me was like "damn this is a weird book, pretty sure Orson is a fascist." And I haven't read him since nor do I plan to ever again.


RoseIsBadWolf t1_iu13iag wrote

I do like his series where humanity has tried again on another planet. Memory of Earth is the first one I think?

I have been avoiding his recent works, they are just not as good. Alvin Maker is also interesting but unfinished and I didn't like the later books.

I like Magic Street a lot because I love A Midsummer Night's Dream but I also feel ambiguous about a novel where the main character is black being written by a white guy...


TheAres1999 t1_iu5mijs wrote

>I do like his series where humanity has tried again on another planet. Memory of Earth is the first one I think?

The Homecoming Saga. I read the first one of that a few years back. I enjoyed it


congradulations t1_iu1c6gw wrote

Ender's Shadow is the true "sequel" to the first book, then the rest of the Shadow series. Never look up Card himself, he's an asshole.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1jh6k wrote

Yeah. I looked him up... he doesn't think gay people should be equal citizens. Kinda hard to look past that.. honestly kinda wish I could have never made this post.


congradulations t1_iu1k05h wrote

I promise, read Ender's Shadow and it's worth it. You won't view Ender the same way either, but he was always a tragic figure. The Shadow series does Ender's Game better (except he figures out the final reveal, because of the genius among geniuses does), AND it features Peter and Val doing Earth politics stuff in the following books. Best Ender book, best Ender series

Battle School-trained military genius kids go home to their countries, having defeated humanity's unifying enemy... what could go wrong?!


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1m5ze wrote

Is it heavy on politics, are enders siblings in it?


mundane_coconut47 t1_iu1wlzd wrote

Yes they play a sizeable role in the books I think (it's been a long time since I read the series so I could be misremembering).


Contentiblereddit t1_iu3j8tl wrote

Ender's Shadow is also a multiple part series that lets Orson Scott Card say everything about Islam is evil and wrong.


helava t1_iu292o6 wrote

Also if you’re not yet convinced, read anything he wrote in response to 9/11, Iraq and Afghanistan. It’s incomprehensible that that’s the same person that wrote Ender’s Game, but it is.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu3329p wrote

Im.beyond convinced he's awful and deserves no money. But no one has begun to convince me whybi shouldn't read books I already own


helava t1_iu4yfos wrote

I think that's wholly up to you. If it doesn't give him additional money, then the big negative is gone. I still have my copy of Ender's Game and The Worthing Saga. I'm debating whether to let my older son read Ender's Game. It'd be right up his alley. I suspect I probably will, and then we'll talk about Mr. Card's views afterwards.

I think the interesting thing about Card is that my interpretation of his books doesn't reflect his real-life worldview at all. One of the reasons I felt a sense of betrayal when I found out about his views was that they seem so contrary to what I took from his writing. Which is one of the interesting things about stories, how they can bend and change depending on who's reading them.

But let's take a different author, and someone I equally admired as a kid: Frank Miller. I love The Dark Knight Returns, and Daredevil: Born Again. Born Again might be my favorite comic arc ever. It still is.

But then look at something like 300, or Holy Terror. Whether it's blatant homophobia or blatant Islamophobia - those things are in those books in really fundamental ways. Is reading them bad? It depends.

We learn from stories. We build our ideals and our worldview through them. We find role models in characters. We alter our real-world behavior based on myths. While I can look at Miller's more recent work, and it's so far out in space that I can say, "This is grotesque" and reject it, the closer and closer you get to "normal" the harder it is to distinguish the influence those characters can have on you.

Should you stop reading Card? I don't know. I deeply love some of his books. But at the same time, what if instead, I read N.K. Jemisin? Octavia Butler? Ted Chiang? Would I be influenced by their works? Surely. How would the subtle influence their work has on my worldview change me? Their work is no less grand.

We all have a limited amount of time to spend. We should be careful who we choose to spend it with.


GrudaAplam t1_iu3jyk5 wrote

After reading Enders Game I have no desire to read any of Card's other books.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu42y5z wrote

They're not really similar. That's not a great way to have decides that


GrudaAplam t1_iu6j7yl wrote

I didn't like the writing style. That's a perfect reason to decide.


TheAres1999 t1_iu5m3eg wrote

The prequel trilogies of the First and Second Formic Wars have so far been a lot more interesting Ender's Game. That's not to say EG was bad, just that these have been better. The 3 book of the second trilogy is not out yet though


donjohndijon OP t1_iu5n3ol wrote

Interesting. Hopefully I know someone who owns some copies- maybe I can pirate an audio recording...


Lyssalynne t1_iu195ph wrote

I enjoyed the Gate Thief series until the ending. >! Babies happily ever after just didn't make sense to me for those characters. !<


donjohndijon OP t1_iu1j006 wrote

It made sense enough for me. It just left me longing for the wars that would never be.. we leave our main characters all super charged with power. We had mages working with the US military. People learning to gate without gates. And people like Danny and his Wind Mage friend who were talking about doing magic for muggles. Making big gates in all major cities with giant hubs to move everyone to anywhere, instantly and free. Healing gates in every village. I bet mages could fix up our melting glaciers too..

There was so much more I wanted to see happen. And it seems like he will never return to the big story. His only interest is writing more about Westeril.


[deleted] t1_iu1icla wrote



donjohndijon OP t1_iu1kx9l wrote

I can understand not wanting to give the guy money. I actually support that.. but what harm will be done by reading his work? Obviously that assumes you can aquire a book that's used- but buying his book from goodwill doesn't give him any money. So what benefit comes from you not reading his books? As someone who read many of them before finding out he's bigot, I can assure you that no such themes appear in his works (well, the 15 or so I've read.)


gmclapp t1_iu3y71p wrote

I agree with the idea of this comment, that it's possible to read things without supporting the creator of those things. And, in general I think it's healthy to read opinions with which you disagree, that's how I de-converted from Christianity in the first place.

But Card's hangups about sex and problematic views absolutely do come through in his writing and it's hard to believe you haven't noticed that having read 15 of his books.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu4fkfk wrote

I mean. Misogyny maybe. An utter lack of homosexuals.

I've heard it's pretty clear in a few books I've never read


viscountrhirhi t1_iu27zmj wrote

If you read his stuff, read it for free.

Do not give this bigot money.

Used book stores are always full of his books.


redheadfitz t1_iu2qt78 wrote

I used to love Orson Scott Card's work, but he was one of the first writers I stopped supporting due to his comments on gays. Then I found out he was involved in an antigay group that supported killing homosexuals in Africa- like African gays do not have enough problems. Orson Scott Card is a horrible human and there are lots o other writers to read.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu433hk wrote

Wanna suggest some similar authors? I'm on the hunt


ChimoEngr t1_iu4ccxx wrote

No thanks. He's an out and out homophobe who would be happy to use force to put them all back into the closet and breed. I have no interest in giving him any more money.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu4fcy9 wrote

You clearly didn't read the edit ...


ChimoEngr t1_iu4h1n1 wrote

I did I don't care, I'm still going to make the point about how he's someone I don't have any interest in supporting. I find it funny that throughout this thread, you're saying that you didn't know about what a shit person he was, and sorta apoligise, but have kept up this thread about a shit person, rather than deleting your post.


donjohndijon OP t1_iu4jxhi wrote

So you just kinda re worded it..

I'm not apologizing for anything. I learned new information and changed my opinion. I make no apology for being ignorant of an authors views.

I have found the discussion about what to do with art made by horrible people very interesting.


beast916 t1_iu9abs9 wrote

Card is a trash person, but if you're the type who can separate the art and the artist, some of his early work is very good. I wouldn't bother reading anything from this century and none of his nonfiction (generally online stuff).


donjohndijon OP t1_iu9gx7l wrote

Most the series I mentioned are from this century, they may have had some misogyny but it wasn't terribly blatant. Also an utter lack of homosexuality but I never noticed it until finding out about Cards statements.

However one of his early books, I'm told, has some fucked up shit with a gay character repenting his ways or something.

It's not really a matter of separating it for me. They are separate. I didn't give two shits about cards personal life until I found out he was a bigot. And I don't want to support a big it in anyway. But still, I have to work to connect the man to his works. It's easy to do when faced with buying something, it's hard to so when thinking about a story I already love.