Endysis_Aponia t1_iwkt3qm wrote
Reply to comment by koavf in Digital Books wear out faster than Physical Books - Internet Archive Blogs by koavf
We can always read them though. Maybe not on your newest e-reader but you can still do it.
Eyokiha t1_iwkttvh wrote
For now.
But once your old reader is broken and some book files aren’t updated to work on newer readers, then you’ll have a problem.
Example: I have the Sims 2 and many expansions as discs. I have been unable to play it for many years now. The last Windows version they worked on (for me) was Windows 7. I don’t have a working computer with Windows 7 anymore. The game isn’t available in an updated form for either download or disc. I cannot ever play it anymore, just because my computer is too ‘new’. For such games there isn’t an analogue alternative as with books.
jynx18kaz t1_iwl8p0s wrote
You should still be able to play it
Make a Virtual Machine, or look into how other people are playing older games on newer machines
Dual boot is also an option although considered unsafe due to security patches not being a thing
Endysis_Aponia t1_iwkugmt wrote
You have ePub readers on Pc.
And there's probably a way to get Sims 2 working. If nothing else there's always a get Windows 7.
Eyokiha t1_iwkvf4h wrote
> You have ePub readers on Pc.
Again: for now. Who knows if those will stay updated to keep working?
> And there’s probably a way to get Sims 2 working. If nothing else there’s always a get Windows 7.
Believe me, I have tried. There are some people got it working, but none of their solutions worked on my computer. And even if you get it to work, it doesn’t mean it works well. There’s a gamer on youtube who played the Sims 2 recently, but it was pretty buggy. (And he plays games for a living, so I’m certain he spend time on getting it to work as best he could.)
And no, I’m not buying an old/extra computer to have a Windows 7 system just for one game. And even if I did, that computer would die on me eventually too.
Anything digital (that is dependant on something else to work) sadly just isn’t as long lasting as something analogous. Digital has its advantages of course, but longevity isn’t one of them.
MindlessRanger t1_iwlge0z wrote
I’m sorry, but not one of your paragraphs make any sense whatsoever.
Software as a construct doesn’t go through wear and tear. What you are talking about is software entropy, old software may not fit users’ expectations or configurations anymore (your example with Windows 7 and some old games fits here), or may not be maintained anymore.
What differs all this is from typical wear and tear is that in case of normal wear, changes occur in the object itself. Take a CD for example. No matter what you do, you can’t stop it from degrading given time. You can try and slow it down, but can’t stop it completely. That’s wear and tear. In case of software, this doesn’t occur. Changes in the environment cause software entropy, and even decades later, you can still use that software as long as you make the required changes to the environment.
> There’s a gamer on youtube who played the Sims 2 recently, but it was pretty buggy. (And he plays games for a living, so I’m certain he spend time on getting it to work as best he could.)
This is so trivial that they could do it in an afternoon if they had the required knowledge. Just fire up a VM with Windows XP or ME, you don’t need to do anything else.
> Anything digital (that is dependant on something else to work) sadly just isn’t as long lasting as something analogous. Digital has its advantages of course, but longevity isn’t one of them.
Wrong. This is just totally wrong. One of the primary reasons digital media was invented was the fragility of analog media. Analog media is a direct representation of information, you can’t faithfully make a copy of it without losing some of that information in the process or store it indefinitely. This attenuates over time and eventually you lose most if not all of the original information itself. Digital data abstracts information over it’s representation. You can make infinite identical copies of it, change the abstraction (difference between epub1, epub2 or epub3 for example), share it across the world and the information that lies under that digital media is still the same as the original one. This is the reason why libraries all around the world are digitizing their catalogs.
Specialist-Throat924 t1_iwm1i93 wrote
I believe you got a bit hung up on the article's phrasing of "wear out". Nobody in the world (hyperbole) thinks that software or electronic files "wear out" the way physical objects do. The person you replied to didn't say that either. It's just a comparison, maybe not a very good one. You can't accuse the other poster for making nonsensical arguments and then go on to attack something they didn't even say.
Anyway, yes, currently, there are ways to access older software and files. You might need to spend some extra time finding a workaround, but there will be one.
But what about in 50 years? In 100 years? ...300 years? When nobody who ever cared about those games or that software is still alive? The older these systems get, the more we need enthusiasts who are willing to spend their time to keep them alive somehow. Generally the people who do still engage with it are people who have a nostalgic connection to the time when it was produced.
There are of course also major drawbacks to analog media, and format obsolescence is also one of them for most formats outside of books. There are many physical formats, both analog and digital, that may well become completely inaccessible in our lifetime. When the last MiniDisc player dies, existing MiniDiscs will never again be played, for example. This is an adjacent but different problem to that of obsolete file formats/software. I mean, we'll have computers in the future too. But I think it's just way to early in the computing age to conclude that we will be able to access the currently existing files and software forever.
MindlessRanger t1_iwm5pmc wrote
I think the user I replied to used wear out in the sense I’ve interpreted it in my response, they talked about epub readers not being updated and therefore not working with epub files anymore, which doesn’t make sense at all if they didn’t imply them wearing out with not being updated. A better term may be deprecation. Software (or digital data) doesn’t deprecate in the sense that it loses functionality, that’s what I meant and that is what the user above was implying with their comment about epub reader, sims 2 game etc. I stand by what I’ve written.
Anyway, let me answer your question with another question:
Do you think print media lasts 50, 100 or 300 years on its own without maintenance? If your answer is no, then you can do 0.1% of that maintenance for your digital books by keeping backups of it / software that can play it and maybe the operating system. Heck, even keeping an old computer in storage for archival purposes works too.
I understand your mini disc example and you’re right, but that’s a different problem. You are talking the physical medium specifically, not the digital abstraction of it. The only argument against digital data I see is a catastrophic event where humanity is regressed to a point where utilizing computers is impossible.
Specialist-Throat924 t1_iwmbmmm wrote
Okay, they didn't use the expression "wear out" about files, but I catch your drift.
I never said that books last that long with or without maintenance. I certainly don't think they do! Preserving media for hundreds of years is very difficult no matter the format. I merely commented that access to older digital material may well prove difficult far into the future. I will admit that I was straying away from the original topic, which was a direct comparison between paper books and ebooks. I feel like the debate on whether we can play a Windows 7 game in 2022 kind of loses its point when we are talking about preserving things even further into the future, especially longer than the lifetime of the people who had fond memories of that piece of media. Yes, this was the example the other user made, and I agree with you that their difficulties can be overcome. But I think they have a point still. It's already not fully straightforward (as in install game, click & play), and it's only been 18 years. Games are a part of our cultural history and could prove very interesting to future historians and other social scientists. Will they be able to access them in hundreds of years? That's the real issue imo.
I have my doubts about us being able to preserve functional older computers for hundreds of years, but I would be happy to know that I'm wrong, as I get kind of stressed out at thinking of all the wonderful (in its way) old technology that will be forever lost.
> I understand your mini disc example and you’re right, but that’s a different problem.
Yes, that's why I called it an adjacent problem. My point was that physical media isn't necessarily better regarding future inaccessibility due to format obsolescence. Just a comment for those who love everything physical I guess :)
Eyokiha t1_iwnww29 wrote
I never said ‘wear and tear’, so I don’t see how your argument about that is relevant.
I just said that if something is digital doesn’t mean it’ll last forever. Epub files, games, etc. all require other software to be used. When that necessary software gets deprecated, such digital things are effectively lost. Sometimes people figure out ways around that (e.g. emulators), but that won’t always be the case (especially with lesser known stuff).
A physical book may degrade over time, but as long as you keep it safe, we’re talking about many many lifetimes, rather than the years until the newest update will fuck something up.
MindlessRanger t1_iwnzcu7 wrote
>When that necessary software gets deprecated, such digital things are effectively lost
No, this was the whole point of my comment. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t get updates or isn’t supported anymore. The software will keep working forever if you provide it with the same environment.
No one is holding you at a gunpoint to update your software, you can also always install old versions if it comes to that. The digital book itself is fine as long as you keep it safe.
Also, try reading more than one sentence into the comment before responding. I’ve written the exact same thing in the previous comment, but I presume you stopped reading after deeming it ‘not relevant’.
Eyokiha t1_iwp0e8g wrote
You’re not reading my comments correctly.
> The software will keep working forever if you provide it with the same environment.
Theoretically, yes, obviously. The problem is that it not always easy or possible. If all gameboys are broken and no one with the skill takes the effort to create an emulator, it doesn’t matter that the game is still there. That’s why I said effectively lost.
> No one is holding you at a gunpoint to update your software, you can also always install old versions if it comes to that.
Again: theoretically yes. But effectively no.
I hardly find it a proper argument to claim that you can just not update. Like with an iPad, if you don’t update for too long certain apps will stop working because they force you to have a minimum ios version. And you can’t just install an older version of everything.
koavf OP t1_iwkv7ee wrote
Maybe, but you will also always be able to read plain text. The scenario where plain text is unreadable is one where there are no computers at all.
MindlessRanger t1_iwm6xx3 wrote
An epub file is just a zip file with plain text chapters + images + table of contents inside laid down in a structured (read: standardized) manner. You can literally extract an epub file to a folder with a zip tool (like WinRAR if you use windows) and use notepad to read the book if you want.
And, even if it weren’t a fancy zip-based file format, but a binary format, the specification is out there and open freely.
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