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mustyHead t1_ixpz62f wrote

people who complain about holden being a whiny guy and nothing more is my red flag.

idk if people actually have read that book or just make assumptions about it. Because i literally can't believe any emphatic person could read the whole book, and only say "haha holden complains a lot, amiright"

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Luke_Orlando t1_ixqa2u4 wrote

Coworker of mine hates this book and for a similar reason. She has a doctorate so I assumed she had like, valid reasons to criticise the books she read but no. It's a lot of "that character is a whiny teen" and "oh it was boring" <-- her withering critique of The Great Gatsby. 😒

Like, how is that a critical read of the book? Really sad. The most surface level reader I've come across in a while.

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moonboundshibe t1_ixqv80q wrote

Someone being educated doesn’t mean they’re obliged to perform critical analysis on demand.

And Great Gatsby is boring.

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Luke_Orlando t1_ixqyr51 wrote

Taste isn't the issue.

People like what they like. That's their business, but to sit there and call a book objectively bad just because you have the critical reading skills of a capybara is really ignorant.

That's what bothers me. They read a classic that is beloved and critically acclaimed by millions, and they go "I don't like it, which means it's bad."

Edit: they edited their comment to seem less off-topic so my response doesn't make sense now. Whatever, leaving it lol.

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moonboundshibe t1_ixxjch5 wrote

So one can only have a valid opinion if they have a degree of reading skills that meets your expectations?

This onion’s got layers!

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Luke_Orlando t1_ixypoqo wrote

Did you even read what I said?

Subjective liking and disliking of literature is not the issue at hand here. Everyone is entitled to like or dislike things for whatever reason they want.

I don't like Maroon 5 because I think Adam Levine sounds like a cat in heat. That's not an objective criticism. They might be a well-receieved band with lots of fans but I just don't like it. I cannot sit there and say that Maroon5 is GOOD or BAD based on my personal LIKES and DISLIKES.

This person does not understand the difference. They seem to believe that their subjective experience while reading a book is the best determining factor of a book's objective merit.

Therefore her worldview is "if I don't like it, it must be bad."

That is a stupid view that leaves no room for objective interpretation.

Please read my comments before responding.

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Sigaromanzia t1_ixqoy9f wrote

I read it in high school and he just came off as extremely immature who had an inflated sense of worth/superiority that eventually implodes at the end, even for a 10th grader at the time.

I didn't read it with the context of how well loved the book was or how famous it was, so I didn't feel the need to tear the book down. It just wasn't very interesting at a time when teenage angst was in every movie since the mid 80's.

What I do take from it, with context, is that it was one of the first, if not the first, to put teen angst to words. So from that perspective I can see where it was totally different.

I've seen the same with John Hughes movies with younger kids. They don't get it when they've seen a hundred cookie cutter Netflix teen movies or books, but it was really Hughes who hit the teenage experience on film before it became a popular genre to make teens human VS caricatures.

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kiravonconcrete t1_ixqzu2m wrote

Hahaha, first line. Yeah, that’s the point.

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Sigaromanzia t1_ixr8rzq wrote

I get that's the point, lol, he's an angsty teen without the emotional tools or support system.

His only redeeming quality (shown to us in the book} is he understands the innocence of kids. Otherwise it's just a pretty boring story with a character I don't really care for, and am not given a reason to care for until his breakdown at the very end.

Riffing here: seeing his struggle after his breakdown would likely have been the interesting story. In reality most kids like him never reach the point of a breakdown and just remain annoying.

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Onequestion0110 t1_ixqphky wrote

Maybe investigate a smidge. I mostly agree with you, but I think there’s also a lot of people who just dislike stream-of-consciousness style writing and can’t quite verbalize what their problem is.

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fabezz t1_ixqrjc9 wrote

I can empathize with Holden, but I still don't like him.

He's definitely a shadow character for me, he reminds me of my cringe, immature teenage self. At the same time he doesn't go so far as to be interesting, either.

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