We need to talk about We Need To Talk About Kevin

Submitted by ApprehensiveStatus17 t3_zyclci in books

While Shriver purposely keeps the debate open, having just finished this amazing book I believe that Kevin was just born a little shit. Considering how much of a cold unfeeling monster of a child Kevin was (Celia also had Eva as a mother and did just fine), Eva was a saint for putting up with him as she did.

Do you think Eva was responsible for Kevin turning into a monster? Where's the blame for Franklin? Was it to do with wider society? Or was Kevin just born a sociopath? I think this was a, if unnecessarily verbose, fantastic book. Let me know what you think.

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ciaobaby2022 t1_j253qkl wrote

Very good book, and I always think the conversations it provokes are very interesting.

I also believe Kevin was born that way, but you can definitely tell from his mother's personality that he inherited a few of her qualities. I like Eva as a protagonist, but she does come across as a bit cold, and lacking in empathy.

With a normal kid, the father's overzealousness might balance things out. But it seems Kevin had nothing but contempt for his father. And also anyone else who came across as sincere and loving, like his little sister.

I am contemplating whether Kevin might have turned out differently with two very warm, supportive parents, but I really don't think so. There's plenty of kids with a cold parent who don't turn out to be psychopaths. And vice versa. It's a tough call because I do think he could have inherited his lack of empathy from his mother, but there were a lot of other factors at play too.

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judyblue_ t1_j25cub6 wrote

Things might have also been very different if Franklin had believed and validated Eva instead of ignoring her concerns. I'm sure Eva's coldness was all the worse because she felt so alone in the struggle.

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showard995 t1_j25pw9q wrote

We see everything through the eyes of the mother, and she is an unreliable narrator. She admits she never wanted Kevin. She broke his arm, and who has a seven year old still in diapers without taking them to all kinds of doctors to find out why? She assumes he’s just being a pain in the ass. And she was insufferably elitist and superior. So I do wonder how much was Kevin and how much was mother. Which is exactly what we’re supposed to wonder.

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onioning t1_j2593mt wrote

I think you need to consider the feelings mama had for Kevin from the start. She never had that normal attachment mother's feel for children. And we know it isn't just about her because she does have that attachment for her daughter.

I don't recall the name, but there's a known disorder where for reasons unknown occasionally a mother will just not have the normal feelings for their child. These children have enormously increased chances of being a sociopath or other major disorder. Gotta think this is what Shriver was writing about.

And just as in real life, it's difficult to lay the blame. Was she uncaring for her son because he was a little baby sociopath, or was it the lack of caring that made him develop into a sociopath? I don't think Shriver answers this question. Though do note at the end how much Kevin still wants his mother's love.

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No_Swordfish_2370 t1_j25l9iz wrote

It’s been a very long time since I read the book but I went to a talk with Shriver and I found it very interesting that she wanted to keep the focus so closely on exactly the questions you’re posing, hence the ‘method’ Kevin uses (attempting to keep spoiler free) so as not to divert discussion overtly towards similar cases from the headlines.

I hope this makes sense. Trying to not spoil it but I think my attempts are making no sense at all…

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ApprehensiveStatus17 OP t1_j28oo72 wrote

I absolutely get you, you're dead right. It was a good way of keeping the conversation focused on the far more interesting questions of why, who is to blame etc. and not veering off into the... other discussion

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mind_the_umlaut t1_j26hw0g wrote

I read this around the same time I read A Mother's Reckoning by Sue Klebold, mother of the second shooter at Columbine Hish School. It sounds very much like the fictional Kevin. I am creeped out by both mothers. Eva in Kevin is a cold narcissist, distant, unable to unbend or be warm to her own child. She has her own agenda, she's enthralled with her own elitism, taste, intellect. Look at the real life mother, Sue Klebold. I think she has her own agenda, too, combining appeasing Dylan with furthering her own religious standards, whether artificial or just irrational, plus, looking like the perfect family. But is there anything you can do to forcibly treat someone who doesn't appear to be "that bad"?

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Old_Bandicoot_1014 t1_j27f0ra wrote

I think Kevin was born that way. Unrelated but reading this reaffirmed my desire NOT to have children

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pit-of-despair t1_j25abdv wrote

In real life Ted Bundy’s parents were normal and we all know how that turned out. I think some people are just born missing the humanity gene.

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Additional_Speech164 t1_j27ko5g wrote

Eva seemed mentally off imo and not a very good parent. It came across on her diary rants.

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CodexRegius t1_j28agpw wrote

Knowing one like him, and his family, I am certain Kevin was plainly born like that. His real-world counterpart fortunately has not murdered anyone - but can you imagine that his own sister would not talk to him for years? In the same house? His parents were absolutely not to blame: I know them both as kind people who adored their baby son (too much, IMO) and were dismayed about how he turned out. But it could not be helped. His first girlfriend set him straight in the end, fortunately; till then, some of us had seriously considered the possibility he might fall criminal.

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Still-Mirror-3527 t1_j2awtfe wrote

You don't know what happens behind closed doors.

For all you know, the child was abused and neglected just like Kevin was.

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CodexRegius t1_j2b40hm wrote

For all I know, he wasn't.

The question is: What happened to his sister?

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Still-Mirror-3527 t1_j2b74j5 wrote

Why do I care about what happened to his sister?

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CodexRegius t1_j2cwr3g wrote

It might tell us something important about her brother's personality.

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Still-Mirror-3527 t1_j2ey1u3 wrote

Or you could stop speaking cryptically like an idiot.

Sibling behavior isn't an indicator of parental quality.

Abusive families often choose one child as a scapegoat to prevent sibling solidarity against the abusers.

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Still-Mirror-3527 t1_j2awbid wrote

>I believe that Kevin was just born a little shit

When it comes to stuff like this, everyone loves to just believe that monsters appear out of nowhere and commit callous acts for no reason at all.

The brutal truth is that society, including every parent of a school shooting victim, is to blame for the prevalence of school shooters in the United States.

The ease of access to firearms, lack of universal healthcare, outdated education system, rising cost of living, increasing concentration of wealth in the hands of a few, rampant spread of right-wing propaganda, nonsensical poverty guidelines, etc.

And don't even get me started on how common and accepted child abuse is. We still have some people advocating for beating their children as a method of discipline. That is how psychotic society is.

With regard to the book, the mother abused and neglected Kevin, which always seems to be glossed over for some reason.

There is no point in analyzing isolated incidents when it is a systemic problem that will never change.

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ApprehensiveStatus17 OP t1_j2dvfk4 wrote

'The ease of access to firearms, lack of universal healthcare, outdated education system, rising cost of living, increasing concentration of wealth in the hands of a few, rampant spread of right-wing propaganda, nonsensical poverty guidelines'.

To be fair, Kevin was not effected by most of these things. He had everything he could ever want, a dad who went above and beyond (the absence of a father figure is usually a symptom of the problem), a mother who (as she tells us) encourages him/says she loves him at least three times a day etc. Kevin had no reason to do what he did other than he was born a sociopath. His sister was brought up in the exact same conditions and was a loveable child.

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Still-Mirror-3527 t1_j2exh8b wrote

>a mother who (as she tells us) encourages him/says she loves him at least three times a day etc. Kevin had no reason to do what he did other than he was born a sociopath.

You obviously didn't read the book.

The mother was abusive and neglectful.

She played a significant role in Kevin's development.

>a dad who went above and beyond (the absence of a father figure is usually a symptom of the problem)

The dad was a part of the problem as well. He coddled Kevin and never tried to seek help for his mental illness.

Both of these parents were horrible and should've never had children in the first place.

>His sister was brought up in the exact same conditions and was a loveable child.

Abusive families often use one child as a scapegoat to prevent siblings from feeling any sense of solidarity against the abusers.

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