Submitted by Agreeable-Roof7429 t3_zvuwvj in books

I'm rereading Lady Chatterley's Lover and there are some sex passages that are super vague but seem to potentially not be referring to plain PIV sex. Curious if anyone has thoughts as to what they're actually doing (my first thought was anal but maybe my mind is in the gutter 🫣)

"Burning out the shames, the deepest, oldest shames, in the most secret places. It cost her an effort to let him have his way and his will of her. She had to be a passive, consenting thing, like a slave, a physical slave. Yet the passion licked round her, consuming, and when the sensual flame of it pressed through her bowels and breast, she really thought she was dying: yet a poignant marvelous death."

"In the short summer night she learned so much she would have thought a woman would have died of shame. Instead of which, the shame died. Shame, which is fear: the deep organic shame, the old, old physical fear, which crouches in the bodily roots of us, and can only be chased away by the sensual fire, at last, it was roused up and routed by the phallic hunt of the man, and she came to the very heart of the jungle of herself. She felt, now, she had come to the real bedrock of her nature, and was essentially shameless"

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Lonely-Host t1_j1rhsyo wrote

I think this section is supposed to invite a reading of anal sex while still working without it. The winks and nudges come further down the page though:

"One had to be strong to bear him. But it took some getting at, the core of the physical jungle, the last and deepest recess of organic shame..."

And right after that, a historical allusions to Greek Vases.

"The same on the Greek vases, everywhere! The refinements of passion, the extravagances of sensuality! And necessary, forever necessary, to burn out false shames and smelt out the heaviest ore of the body into purity. With the fire of sheer sensuality."

There's a lot of other stuff going on in the sex scene regarding the feminine role in sensuality ("giving in") and the sex as a vehicle for transcending both the self and social mores. Adding sodomy only hammers home these points, as it was illegal at the time even between heterosexual couples, and it has historically been viewed as the ultimate submission/receiving act. But the scene also works if you just think they had super animalistic sex.

Apparently, people defending the book in the obscenity trial worried that the prosecution would read the passage as a scene of sodomy, which was still illegal then some 30 years after initial publication:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/nov/21/sodomys-low-profile-in-lady-chatterley-trial

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Sabbaticala t1_j1rnode wrote

It's the literary equal of film's train going into the tunnel. The unspecified acts are there to allow the reader to insert their own desires unto the characters. The essence of good porn. The scene where he weaves flowers into her pubic hair tears down the idea that women's bodies are dirty and shameful

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Agreeable-Roof7429 OP t1_j1rk7ul wrote

Wow, this is amazing context, thank you!! I hadn't paid attention to the Greek allusions really, and (revealing my own ignorance here) didn't realize anal was illegal for heterosexual couples as well. That helps explain the accusations his estranged wife starts making about Mellors being one of the "low, beastly men with women" too. Now I know there was definitely so much more that went over my head.

[Edited an autocorrect spelling error]

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Sabbaticala t1_j1rr31c wrote

If you do a 'compare and contrast' with "the Story of 'O,' the idea that a woman should be repulsed by her own sexuality until and unless she is monogamous and subservient was a strong theme in contemporary erotica.

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FuriousLuna t1_j1rao2f wrote

I can see how you can interpret the first passage as anal sex, although I don't think it actually is.

I think it's just incredibly poetic language, and that the shame is all about having sex with a man who isn't her husband and that the getting to the heart of it stuff and the bowels etc, is more about her learning to accept her carnal side and really getting into enjoying a thorough fucking.

Although, I do like the idea of Lady Chatterly and Mellors really getting into it, and her enjoying a good buggering. It certainly adds some spice to the story. Also, don't worry about your dirty mind. There's nothing wrong with an aristocratic lady having fun butt sex with her groundsman, as long as it's all consensual.

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Sabbaticala t1_j1rrixd wrote

She's already abandoned her class and husband, so what's a little anal? The elite have no defense against the earthy proletariat.

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Agreeable-Roof7429 OP t1_j1rbcne wrote

Thanks for the thoughtful response! Ha yes - regardless of what they're doing, I love the kind of freedom she experiences through sex, it's really beautiful!

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FuriousLuna t1_j1rcep2 wrote

Agreed. I'm a sucker for a woman enjoying liberating, filthy sex, for obvious reasons. Especially when she's repressed and has previously denied herself.

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Jack-Campin t1_j1rl3mb wrote

James Joyce's letters to Nora at about the same time are ecstatic about anal sex, and there's absolutely no doubt he meant it. In the culture Joyce and Lawrence moved in, there was nothing unfamiliar about it. It's much the most plausible interpretation of this.

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bofh000 t1_j1rvt4h wrote

Tbf those passages could be about any kind of activity and they’d make it sound sensual. Unloading the dishwasher, mowing the lawn, dusting, you name it.

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Sabbaticala t1_j1rql3b wrote

I always imagined it was anal, but the ambiguity is the point. Lawrence makes you build your own fantasy.

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Rik78 t1_j1rhehb wrote

Oral sex I reckon.

Mellors has been to France after all.

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series_hybrid t1_j1rw2us wrote

These people from this era were familiar with farm animals, and also stray cats and dogs copulating and birthing offspring.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out oral sex, and anal intercourse (the French and Greek "methods" to avoid pregnancy, respectively)...and also, there have always been "forbidden literature" such as the written memoirs of Casanova, and others...

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Lavendaa t1_j1rgmwu wrote

I interpreted that the night she spent at his cottage, before she was supposed to be leaving for Venice, they had anal.

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Agreeable-Roof7429 OP t1_j1rkclt wrote

Yes this is the exact night that stood out to me as being something "extra" if you will

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stinkload t1_j1s4ywl wrote

yo he tapped dat ass right boy

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[deleted] t1_j1r9z6b wrote

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Agreeable-Roof7429 OP t1_j1raa1y wrote

There are lots of ways to have sex and I was curious about the culture of sex at the time and what specifically would have been considered shameful

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ladygoodgreen t1_j1rc4h5 wrote

At that time, most sexual stuff in most situations would be considered shameful. There was even some societal taboo about enjoying sex with your spouse.

The characters are not married, that’s bad. And they are from different social classes, that’s bad.

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Sabbaticala t1_j1roexg wrote

The different classes is really what the author is skewering. Lord Chatterley is invalid and impotent. His employee is earthy and virile.

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jtobiasbond t1_j1rjeqz wrote

People were considered radical for supporting anything but PIV. British sodomy laws, for example, had nothing to do with gender, any anal sex was considered equally bad.

France was considered liberal in the sexual realms; most popular pornographic books were translated from French or Italian

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Sabbaticala t1_j1roipg wrote

Victorians are known for their porn, brothels and sexual kinks.

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[deleted] t1_j1rae19 wrote

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Agreeable-Roof7429 OP t1_j1ran25 wrote

🤷‍♀️ fair enough, though I think it's natural to wonder

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Whaffled t1_j1rcie6 wrote

Agreed! A perfectly good question. And "it's not a porn novel" says nothing; what exactly is a "porn novel" ? and who gets to apply that label?

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Sabbaticala t1_j1rp7wb wrote

The Supreme Court's ruling on what is obscene is very vague. The 1930s were a complicated time in the US. But we were always public prudes. In part, a backlash against the roaring 20's and empowerment of women and LGBTQ led directly to prohibition and the Hayes movie code.

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PureChaos4704 t1_j1rcw3e wrote

It is. And your question is entirely understandable. Always thought myself that Lawrence may refer to something other than just PIV. Woman's pleasure wasn't regarded as necessary at that time. So it would be even a bit spicier and even more of a scandal.

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Sabbaticala t1_j1rq98h wrote

In victorian times, they believed a woman had to orgasm to become pregnant. WWI changed so much.

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lepetitgrenade t1_j1v2c0r wrote

Definitely anal. I’m not mad at it.

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GrandmaSlappy t1_j1t99st wrote

Lol well vague used to be scandalous

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Tritium3016 t1_j1tpapl wrote

It was probably anal, but given the time it may also have been a female orgasm!

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bertrum666 t1_j1vibaj wrote

Right up the Council Gritter.

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OneGoodRib t1_j1x74z4 wrote

I interpreted the first paragraph as oral sex, not anal! The "had to be a passive thing" does make sense with anal, but could also easily work with being on the receiving end of oral.

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uxoriousm4Femme t1_j1t6tqe wrote

“… as he thrust his mutated member into her quivering quim…”

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[deleted] t1_j1rbutf wrote

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catscoffeecaskets t1_j1s6ewz wrote

Than discuss books on r/books? Are you lost or just having a bad holiday and taking it out on this poster for some reason?

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Njyyrikki t1_j1r97ap wrote

Maybe you should try something more literal, like Harlequin books?

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Agreeable-Roof7429 OP t1_j1r9uhx wrote

I've never heard of those, but perhaps. I'm less interested in graphic descriptions of sex, more interested in the culture around sex in different time periods and what was considered "shameful"/particularly "sensual" at the time

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A-typ-self t1_j1rbu2c wrote

The book was originally published in 1928. The social mores around society, position and women sexuality were firmly in place.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen ways that the MC interest alone would be "shameful." Women were not expected to enjoy, seek out or even desire sex.

She was having sex with her grounds keeper, someone that would have been viewed as lesser than her. She was his better socially. She then gave into him taking the lead, giving commands, being in control. ALL of that would have been shameful.

The simple act of having sex with a skilled lover would have been a sensual experience.

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jl9802 t1_j1rb7gh wrote

The fact that she is enjoying sex at all, especially with a man she isn't married to, is what was likely shameful.

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Agreeable-Roof7429 OP t1_j1rbvgl wrote

That potentially makes sense as well, though there are descriptions of them having sex earlier which don't necessarily seem shameful in the same way. So it seems like it could be less about the fact and more about the specific things they're engaging in in this moment

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