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seeker135 t1_isoigvp wrote

Funny way to say "Greed."

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Cersad t1_isq03vt wrote

We've had greed since time immemorial. The problem is we're giving too much power to a market made up of a small number of sellers.

Boston needs some stiff vacancy taxes and Massachusetts needs to do some antitrust measures against landlords.

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wsdog t1_isozqb9 wrote

Yeah, landlords are actually charities, just allowing people to live in their houses for fun.

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nyold t1_isqcsji wrote

Not sure why you're downvoted. Landlords can set the price as they see fit, welcome to the free market.

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wasting_lots_of_time t1_isr6myc wrote

Normally I'd agree 100%, but absurd zoning laws etc. place an artificial cap on housing supply, which fucks up the market's ability to self-balance. Hence why other commenters in this thread have suggested changing/removing those restrictions.

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Efficient-Future786 t1_isrfysp wrote

It's not a free market though, landlords got in when supply was higher than demand and then restricted new development through zoning laws, red tape, and environmental lawsuits to ensure that rents remain high.

Plus, landlords that are out of state actively drain the local economy. If we really want an optimal and free market, every bit of Boston should be rezoned to increase density. You don't need another seaport, build more Back Bay/Fenway/South End style neighborhoods (the most desirable parts of Boston) and everyone will be happy.

Landlords that reside out of state should be taxed at higher rates to encourage local ownership (and local recirculation of rent money). Corporate ownership should be taxed higher than individual landlords, with an increasing tax rate dependent on how many units you own. Renting a retail property to a chain or bank should have higher tax rates than local businesses. Triple deckers without historical significance should be able to be replaced with 5-6 story mixed use brick buildings (built to the property line with a setback in front) without any hassle.

There's so many pen stroke changes that the city could make to make the market freer and benefit local residents at the same time.

Landlords set prices as they see fit, but they only have buyers at such high prices because of shitty laws and regulatory capture. And it's not like they're locals, a lot of these landlords are from out of state investors or corporations.

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wsdog t1_isql6q7 wrote

It's a leftist sub, so it's expected.

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BrexitBad1 t1_isr834r wrote

Bro even Adam fucking smith the guy who literally invented capitalism said landlords are parasites

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[deleted] t1_istg0g7 wrote

Yeah, they (can) provide a valuable service, but they have no incentive to do anything but the bare minimum in exchange for the maximum you can afford.

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iamnotemilio t1_isp639f wrote

The role of any actor in a market is to maximize their profits to the extent that the market allows. This market analysis software is not even a little surprising, large institutional landlords have been doing this for years. The software is not the problem, the market itself is for allowing one of the most essential human needs to be treated like a faceless profit making commodity.

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plugsie t1_issqqmu wrote

Sure, but there are limits. Few markets are truly free, and whether by regulation or human social norms, limits can have benefits without asking any vendors to suffer. As the article explains, reasonable people with expertise see this as price-fixing. Just because the data is anonymized doesn’t mean it isn’t being shared between competitors.

The other issue is that housing is not a widget. It has particular social and public health facets that impact us all. This algorithm is encouraging landlords to rent fewer units overall at a higher rate, leaving some empty in the interest of more money overall. That doesn’t seem like a choice that is necessarily in a society’s interest to encourage or allow at scale or without limit.

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anurodhp OP t1_isoh319 wrote

>Few tenants know that such software, owned by a privately held company, has had a hand in rent increases across the country.
In Boston, renter Kaylee Hutchinson said she was puzzled when her landlord—unbeknownst to her, a RealPage client—told her days into the first pandemic lockdowns that her rent was going up. Building staff insisted that the market rate for her apartment was 6.5% higher than she was paying, despite her protests that people were fleeing the city.

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Ponceludonmalavoix t1_isov670 wrote

Or, you know, everyone is jacking up prices because they like money?

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BigMax t1_isp95ed wrote

Well, yes, but this lets them do it more often, more efficiently, and with less guilt.

Also it points out it could be a kind of price fixing illegal scheme. If enough people sign up, then it’s essentially price collusion.

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Oafus t1_ispauzk wrote

Right, because landlords used to not like money so they kept rent increases reasonable for posterity sake.

Edit: fuck yeah I got some goddam silver. Shit’s worth its weight in gold.

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nyold t1_isqcunf wrote

The downvoters are just broke lefties being angry at the free market.

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cyanastarr t1_isqdk61 wrote

Move back to New Hampshire I hear they like libertarians

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GoodHumor617 t1_isq6iym wrote

Or, because they have to keep up with the INSANE inflation caused by (you guessed it) the politicians. Pols don't 'jack up' rents, they just 'appropriate' a few billions here and there for themselves and their friends.

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General_Liu1937 t1_isqzz3a wrote

That would be the case if rent was on pace with inflation. Which is not the case especially in cities like Boston.

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sweatpantswarrior t1_isre6rl wrote

Listen here, dumbfuck. Pre-COVID the company I worked for was tossing out 14% renewal bumps for leases expiring in the summer. In the winter of 2019 right up until March of 2020 we were doing 10%.

This was before the rampant inflation you want to use to justify it.

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Codspear t1_isq5yzh wrote

Just let people build as many housing units on their property that they can. More affordable condos means fewer people paying landlords rent anyway.

Fewer renters and more units means less demand for apartments, lowering prices.

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Namgodtoh t1_issa916 wrote

Who are these people and why would they build if not to rent? Banks are not going to finance projects with low/no returns.

I agree that we need more ownable housing stock but we are well entrenched in what is essentially a feudal system of property ownership out here. Without some fairly radical alternatives the system will not self-correct.

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Codspear t1_issaqp1 wrote

Condos allow for a near-instant payoff for developers when they sell the units, whereas apartments are sold to a management company that has to hold significant debt for a decade or more. Even if you just allow for far more apartments though, you get to the point where there are more units than renters and then landlords have to compete in lowering rents to attract tenants. See 2020 in Boston as an example where many places were slashing rents and offering perks like a free month because so many tenants were abandoning the city.

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Namgodtoh t1_issbgqb wrote

Such a high risk though, that I doubt many would be quick to take. Construction is slow, and costs have been very unpredictable since COVID. Couple that with interest rates rising and what we're left looking for is some benevolent millionaires to build quality affordable housing?

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Codspear t1_issygz2 wrote

They don’t need to build affordable housing, just more housing of any kind. New mid-range condos would probably be in the $$300k - 400k range within 128 if we didn’t add so many ridiculous costs to every development and built enough of them. The affordable housing is what all these new units will be in a few decades. Our current lack of affordable housing is due to the massive underdevelopment of new housing over the past few decades.

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ReferenceAny4836 t1_isu9xyh wrote

It would be fairly simple in a functioning country to setup a government program that provided price stability for long-term construction projects. Since housing is such a large proportion of inflation metrics, increasing housing supply would also help stabilize prices and eliminate the need for such a program in the long run. Alas we are living in a failed state.

I am constantly amazed by the lack of imagination in America for anything good ever happening again. It is such a subtle and profound aspect of American collapse. The country that put a man on the moon, can't figure out how to build some condos or a damn train. It's astounding. They made more progress on high speed rail 100 years ago with the Lackawanna Cutoff, than California has after 20 years and billions of dollars wasted. Learned helplessness while the banksters pick our pockets and laugh. This country cannot balkanize fast enough if you ask me. The nation of New England wouldn't be so pathetic without the shithole states dragging us down.

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Local_Stuff_Acct t1_issxksr wrote

Potentially they would build apartments to sell condos at a profit, but yes they may also build them to rent.

Either way, if we stopped artificially restricting the construction of new housing units, landlords and developers would have to be what they currently claim they are: efficient members of the economy providing housing at the minimum marginal cost of production and maintenance.

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sweatpantswarrior t1_ispchd1 wrote

I used to work in property management in luxury developments around Central and Kendall until early 2021, specifically using both OneSite (RealPage) and LRO.

I'm reserving this comment for now and will post my thoughts based on professional experience after work.

UPDATED BELOW WITH MY THOUGHTS:

Let me open up by saying that the current cost of housing directly in the city is absolutely absurd. It rests almost entirely on students being bankrolled and by professionals making fabulous money within 5 years of graduating from undergrad. It is a vicious cycle of pay in certain professions rising to match the cost of living, and the cost of living rising to capture roughly the same percentage of those peoples' pay. You have an Ouroborous of price and compensation.

I should also add that while I worked in the industry, I started off in leasing and finished off with a middle-management role that DID include handing out renewals. I am not a lawyer. I am not a massive landlord, though I worked for corporate management company. I was bound by company policy and Fair Housing laws, so it isn't like I could take pity and just decide on a whim to change new lease nor renewal rates at a whim. I am a working stiff just like the rest of you, although my work for a time was in PM. Don't waste your righteous anger on me as if I'm the avatar of the bullshit renters experience. That'd be like yelling at a Walmart cashier because the Waltons are complete and utter fuckheads.

The first thing you need to know is that just about EVERY industry is reporting their data to a third party. Prior to working in property management I used to work in hotels. We used Smith Travel Reports (STR) to report our rate, occupancy, and Average Daily Revenue (ADR). Without getting too deep into the weeds, we'd report our data to STR as would our competitors. We'd get data back that was anonymized for the competitors we selected. We'd know if we were behind on rates, or if our occupancy was far ahead of the competition. I didn't know which comps we were beating, but I saw where we were relative to the competitors I selected. At no point did this report tell me another hotel's data in particular.

The above is an example of a similar practice to what RealPage is doing, but in another industry. Companies share information. It isn't necessarily to collude and fix prices as it is to see what others are able to sell for and act on the market conditions that creates.

In Property Management, we gather data in a few ways beyond YieldStar & LRO. We do our own market surveys, for example. In Central we had a running email thread among competitors to report the basic data: tours, leases signed, occupancy, average rate by unit type, and any current specials or concessions. Multiple companies participated that I'm declining to name. This email thread went out every Monday, and everyone would reply-all with the requested information.

This email thread arose out of the desire to get away from making the same phone calls every week to the same competitors. Yes, we were doing it among ourselves even without a third party. In fact, I'm almost certain it is still done to supplement what people are getting from YieldStar and LRO. Besides, LRO and YieldStar are only as good as the data put in. One of my responsibilities once I hit management was to enter our market survey data into LRO manually.

If another property didn't disclose anything when I called or if they weren't a part of the Monday email, I could pull all sorts of information directly from their website or make some pretty reasonable inferences. Once I know the building's unit count, all it takes is simple math to see their occupancy. They're going to advertise their specials. They're listing their rents, so I can find the average by unit type. The only thing I can't pull is their actual traffic, but I can get the net change in availability week-to-week once I've started going through things. What I'm saying here is that I can find out an awful lot about the market and make a report on it that doesn't give pricing recommendations, but does show where opportunity lies. In fact, that's exactly what I did at one point with an Excel spreadsheet. I could and did find all of this information on my own, even if it was less efficient.

My report (again, imperfect but fairly accurate), also gave the market share. If my competitive set has 1000 total units (just throwing numbers out for the sake of discussion) and 250 of them are mine, baseline performance should be having 25% of the total occupied units in this comp set be mine. If I have less, I'm underperforming in occupancy. If I have more, I'm doing better than my competitors in that regard. Average rent on its own controls for market share, but combined with market share gives you who the king of the comp set is.

Yes, the article mentions that some companies are willing to take hits to occupancy in exchange for better overall revenue. In Boston & Cambridge, though, I firmly believe that's a false dichotomy. The demand absolutely outstrips supply. It does it to such a degree that I could consistently run 96-98% occupancy, and that's only because corporate would require or LRO would recommend pricing the remaining units sky high. High occupancy and incredibly high rents are absolutely compatible. No company wants to get to 100%, though, because that means that rents at some point were too low (from their perspective).

Also regarding LRO's recommendations, they were all reviewed at the corporate and property levels. There is a weekly call with revenue management to go over LRO and make adjustments to the recommendations. Do we think it is too aggressive? Override prices downward. Do we have some new tip on the market like a large number of new hires for a company or that seasonal postdoc influx? Override prices upward. LRO is a recommendation, but not carved in stone tablets handed down from the mountain.

There's also the collusion issue. I want to stress again that I am NOT a lawyer, no matter how much my family wishes otherwise. It isn't a question of if collusion is happening. The question is to what degree, and when that becomes problematic. Everyone gathers competitive intelligence. That's not even remotely up for debate, and it isn't necessarily an illegal practice. Why can Joe Renter know what UltraLux Seaport is charging, but AlsoLux Seaport can't? That's publicly available information. It HAS to be public, because the number of people renting without any consideration of cost is infinitesimally small.

I can somewhat see the argument for collusion. Everyone knows what everyone's doing and prices accordingly. On the face of it, that's problematic. What I don't see is how things can be priced without government decree if nobody knows that the market is actually like. I don't see how making pricing decisions based on publicly available information rises to the level of actionable collusion. Meeting in a smoky room and sharing what each company wants to do but hasn't announced? Now THAT'S collusion.

I know I've rambled a LOT here, so I'll try and bring things back home:

  • Business intelligence is nothing new and a standard practice in multiple industries.
  • A human being can do what LRO / Yieldstar does, just not as perfectly. The problem has always been there.
  • LRO and Yieldstar are generally trusted, but real management companies understand that not all market conditions are necessarily captured, hence weekly calls to discuss what is being recommended and if it should hold.

This is going to open me up to all sorts of criticism, so I'm going to head that off here as well:

  • I am not a free-market evangelist. I'm actually strongly in favor of rent control or mandating higher percentages of income-based housing in new developments.
  • I believe that rampant building without income restricted housing just means that the well-off will continue to take supply from those who truly need it AND apply upward pressure on pricing for lower cost units as a result. I have seen this both as a tenant and as somebody in the industry. BUILD INCOME RESTRICTED HOUSING FIRST.
  • My remarks above are not an endorsement of the way things are done. They're a look under the hood.
  • I have fought with Revenue Management more than once on the recommendations the software has spit out. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. Sometimes we won't know either way until hindsight kicks in.
  • Pretty much everything RealPage folks are quoted as saying in this piece makes them out to be total pieces of shit. Anyone who says what they do is a total piece of shit and should be treated as such.

AMA I guess. I'm going to bed, but I'll answer to the extent of my knowledge and experience in the morning.

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LordTomofHouseBrady t1_isqrcgv wrote

I too use LRO and I think this article is a bit misleading. I guess if you are using their new AI product you have less control.

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MyStackRunnethOver t1_isqjjxo wrote

I’m sure the fact that we’ve been building housing at a rate slower than the city’s rate of population growth for decades has nothing to do with it

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DrunicusrexXIII t1_isq1502 wrote

It's almost like real estate is a grubby, mercenary business that attracts the dishonest.

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TurnsOutImAScientist t1_isorcrb wrote

This feels so wrong but at the same time so long as landlords maintain control and are making the decisions at the end of the day, just giving advice (however manipulative) can't be illegal, can it?

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Nebuli2 t1_isp1aaq wrote

Whether or not it's illegal is not the same question as whether or not it's horrific and immoral.

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wsdog t1_isozm5r wrote

What's wrong? Your local grocery store also uses software to determine prices.

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TurnsOutImAScientist t1_isp0t19 wrote

What's wrong? 50 years of broad failure to do the sort of anti-trust work that's required for markets to be healthy and not trend toward oligopoly and the market manipulation and rent-seeking that come with it.

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Girlwithpen t1_ispo6vs wrote

There is frequently confusion that people who own properties to rent are doing this out of their interest in providing housing to strangers at a minimal profit or weakest investment for them. They are not. Unless renters are renting from a relative, you will pay market price. People put emotion into the rent filter. No different than buying groceries in a volatile economy.

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Dogmeat411 t1_isprqtf wrote

The problem is that too many people/huge investment firms are trying to squeeze every penny out of an industry people rely on for their lives. If you want to squeeze profits and don't care about the impact, sell drugs.

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free_to_muse t1_isqhf4i wrote

What? You rely on food, clothing, transportation, medical care, etc for your life. In all of those industries, huge investment firms are trying to squeeze every every penny out of the market. Why is housing any different?

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Dogmeat411 t1_isqo608 wrote

Huge investment firms' involvement in renting properties is like their involvement in buying up old drug patents. Is it legal to buy a patent for a life saving drug and increase the price 500% because the market will bear it? Yes. Is it ethical? No. Does it contribute anything? No. Same with the synthetic price increases we've seen as huge companies buy up housing stock. I'm not a marxist, but this is just pure parasite behavior. You want to make money ethicaly, contribute. You want to make quick money and don't care about contributing or upending lives? Sell drugs.

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free_to_muse t1_isskfov wrote

Huge investment firms involvement in renting properties is no different, in principle, than buying up cars, or tuxedos, or furniture. The difference is that the government, with perhaps good intentions, has created an environment in which nobody can increase the supply of new housing without cutting through years of red tape, fending off abutters, and conducting review after review and study after study, at exorbitant cost. What you have done is put billions of dollars on a silver platter in front of huge investment firms and then you get outraged when they reach out and grab it. “It’s unethical!” What’s unethical, and downright wrong, is continuing to maintain the perverse environment in which these firms operate. And this is only on the supply side! On the demand side we have had decades of Federal Reserve policy that has let these firms borrow money at artificially and historically low interest rates. How is that ethical?

Same story with drug patents. You cannot create a system where firms can make billions of dollars with minimal risk and minimal effort, and be shocked when they go out and do so. All this misdirected outrage amounts to nothing. End drug patents now, replace them with a system of subsidies and prizes, and do something constructive to improve this failed system.

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Cersad t1_isq0cqt wrote

Who believes that? Absolutely no one.

The difference is: like food or water, housing is a fundamental human need and we have millenia of history showing how easy it is to monopolize and then abuse a housing market.

It goes back to serfs, and then even earlier history than that.

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Girlwithpen t1_isqn20d wrote

Yes, housing is fundamental but it is not the responsibility of a home owner to house you. Especially in Massachusetts, people who can't afford housing have oodles of funding help available through the government. Many, many rental units are owned by a mom and pop landlord who has the property as an investment. Should this landlord go into debt or risk their investment to provide housing someone can't otherwise afford? If you can't afford rent you get a roommate or rent in a less desirable city or suburb. Also. Life choices. With the exception of a very small percentage, people who own a home rental or single family made a significant series of life choices and sacrifices to get there.

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Cersad t1_isrecej wrote

Nah, the responsibility is on the city and state government. Land is a finite resource, and cities and states seem to have a legitimate interest in preventing property monopolies from forming.

Also there's legitimate interest in preventing price cartels from forming, like what that software tool is creating.

Everything else you said isn't really that relevant; owners gonna own. Regulators gotta regulate.

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nyold t1_isqd0w9 wrote

I wanna say welcome to the free market, but seems like broke SJW downvoters are out in full force tonight

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Girlwithpen t1_isqm3nt wrote

Exactly, renters who want emotional landlord response, ie, down voters. It is worse in the suburbs. People cannot believe a mom and pop landlord with one or maybe two rental properties would actually increase their rent simply because the cost of living went up and they are paying more for taxes, water, community space electricity, snow plowing, maintenance, unit revamping after a tenants dog scratches floors. They'll pay the COL increase for daily Starbucks and at the salon and whatever else is enjoyable but f the landlord. I think the software is a great idea because it takes emotion out of the equation. Family? You bet, my own lives rent free. Life. Choices.

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CLS4L t1_isp4grp wrote

Landlord bill go up like everything else.

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guitmusic12 t1_ispcrg8 wrote

What % of a landlords expenses are not fixed or partially fixed rate mortgages

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free_to_muse t1_isrckky wrote

That’s a weird question. Say one landlord inherited their property and so 100% of their expenses are not fixed rate mortgages. Another landlord borrowed the entire purchase price a year ago at a fixed rate. Their P&I payments are guaranteed to be stable (but massive) and now they’re under water too. And they have all the same non-fixed expenses as the first landlord. Who’s in the better position?

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CLS4L t1_ispgsvy wrote

Great question wish it was that easy.

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