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mapinis t1_j5vhgef wrote

Will this require actual electrification or will it be those horrible battery trains?

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Maxpowr9 t1_j5vpxgk wrote

You know some NIMBY will complain about the cateneries being unsightly yet think nothing of the rats nest of wiring that are over streets.

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Bostonosaurus t1_j5vqdr0 wrote

I don't think this will get NIMBYd. Diesel is slower, louder, smellier. Literally no advantage for those that live near tracks.

The only issue would be the construction but honestly that's like a few months (hopefully) of hassle.

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rklancer t1_j5w8nf5 wrote

Feels like you're underestimating NIMBYs here...

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dante662 t1_j5ykecq wrote

I live next to a commuter line. I will support electric trains whole heartedly, overheadlines or no.

​

The electric green line trains are so, so much quieter.

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BfN_Turin t1_j5vqbjs wrote

Bringing up a great point: those rats nest of wiring shouldn’t be above the street in main metro areas to begin with. Just put them underground and avoid all the power outages every minor storm.

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Not_a_tasty_fish t1_j5w0vun wrote

"Just put them underground". Fucking lol

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BfN_Turin t1_j5w3kxe wrote

Massachusetts has a similar population density to Germany. Every tiny village in Germany has their power lines underground. Nothing to “fucking lol” about. It’s doable.

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vhalros t1_j5w6yx0 wrote

Perhaps an even more relevant example, Cambridge has already buried most of their power lines.

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mgzukowski t1_j5w401a wrote

That's not the issue, it's the other shit that's buried.

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BfN_Turin t1_j5w5ugw wrote

And you think nothing was buried in Germany when they did it there?

Edit: just to clarify. The government has a pretty damn good idea what’s buried where here. Hence calling them before you dig. They can tell what’s there. Germany didn’t even know. Plans were gone after WW2, if they even existed from before. And there were bombs from the war everywhere as well. They still got it done.

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mgzukowski t1_j5wuqqw wrote

That's why they got it done, everything had been totally destroyed. So everything had to be rebuilt. Boston never got that, so shit is all over the place down there.

If it was easy it would be done already, since it would be safer.

Also at the same.point they don't know what down there. Not perfectly that's why even with dog safe things get hit

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BfN_Turin t1_j5wz5eh wrote

Nope. Power lines were put underground in the 70s. Germany had been rebuild by then and was deep into the Wirtschaftswunder.

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mgzukowski t1_j5wzo0f wrote

The point was they had to rebuild everything so everything was organized. Not that it was done all at once.

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BfN_Turin t1_j5x169x wrote

But it wasn’t. No one knew what was in the ground. Hell, there were bombs all over the place still, they even find them regularly during construction work right now. They needed to build as much housing as possible in as little time as possible. The building material was often the rubble from destroyed buildings. Electricity was rebuilt quickly as well. Germany had a fully function electricity network again within a few years after the war. With utility poles like the US, cause it had to be fast. Then, in the 70s, the conscious decision was made to put them underground. Germany was fully rebuild by then already. Saying that decision 30 years after the war is connected to the build up is simply wrong. Another great way to show this rebuild argument doesn’t make sense is simply using another country as example: Switzerland. They also mainly have underground powerlines and we’re not destroyed during the war at all. Now, I have to say that I do not know anything about the history about this in Switzerland, but their underground lines are for sure not based on rebuilding the country from rubbles. Denmark is the same as well.

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michael_scarn_21 t1_j5yon0x wrote

Right? I was amazed at how often there are power cuts after winter storms here compared to the UK. The difference is lines are buried in the UK.

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batmansmotorcycle t1_j5wxrcl wrote

Why is the argument for everything “well Europe does it so we should do”. It’s like watching boomers meme on Facebook.

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BfN_Turin t1_j5wzkl5 wrote

Well. The person before me mentioned it can’t be done. I showed an example that it can. Sorry I hurt your “America is always the best” brain with it.

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batmansmotorcycle t1_j5x3jdh wrote

Nothing to do my brain or the country, it’s a false equivalency fallacy commonplace in this sub.

It can be done, at a prohibitively expensive cost. There isn’t a really benefit to it either other than a nicer view maybe.

You’d have to bury local substations and long transmission lines to fully be free from weather disruptions.

I love disagreeing with the /r/Boston hive mind.

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CJYP t1_j5xb88f wrote

So in your mind, it's not a benefit to reduce weather related power outages unless you can eliminate them completely?

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batmansmotorcycle t1_j5yju5t wrote

Lol no I think the people who argue for this grew up on a nice suburban culd a sac with burried lines and have no idea how the grids work.

Worth it at what cost?

Give me an estimate if one exists.

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cbg13 t1_j5w5aqa wrote

A family friend of ours recently had to bury about 300 feet of power lines on their business' property and it cost 350k.

The real kick in the pants is that the power company offered to bury all of the lines on the property (probably half a mile or more) 15 years ago for 150k, but our friend's business wasn't able to afford it at the time.

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milkfiend t1_j5w3gjq wrote

"Just" is doing some mighty heavy lifting there

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Axel_Wench t1_j5wc56e wrote

The article discusses this. They're hybrid battery-wired trains so they don't have to rebuild tunnels and bridges, but the trains will otherwise be powered by catenary wires.

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ToadScoper OP t1_j5wfq3y wrote

Keep in mind battery trains were only conceptually proposed last summer and no contracts were finalized. The actual bill recommends full system electrification instead of hybrid electrification

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DumbshitOnTheRight t1_j5viw2e wrote

The T can't even electrify the Orange line reliably.

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Its_me_mikey t1_j6040vw wrote

That’s cuz all those new cars are “green” and feed electricity back to the transformers and what not that were built in the 80’s so they short out. All that work they did last fall during the shut down was the replace old rail, ballast and ties. Really didn’t accomplish a whole lot

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ToadScoper OP t1_j5v7nkr wrote

The legislation effectively resurrects the 2019 fiscal control board service delivery plan for electrification that was later shelved when that board was dissolved. With a new governor and big shakeups looming over the MBTA, I can see how politicians want to get this plan on track and move away from the short-sighted hybrid concept.

That being said, the legislation is very half-baked and infeasible, especially regarding the electrification deadlines for 2024. Even if EMUs are ordered in the next 1 to 2 years, the T has no facilities that can maintain or receive electric regional trains; leasing interim electric locomotives from Amtrak is also difficult since they’re already stretched thin for motive power on the NEC. Likewise, the Providence/Stoughton line station sidings are not electrified past providence and requires a substantial amount of infrastructure installation (also forget about electrifying Newburyport/rockport or Fairmount by 2024, even in a perfect world that’s unrealistic for the MBTA).

While I don’t think this bill will go anywhere, I’m certain a lot more similar bills will be submitted over the coming months.

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dpm25 t1_j5v9n7d wrote

Wasn't this already passed in some version and line item vetoed by Baker?

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ToadScoper OP t1_j5w63eq wrote

Not in terms of commuter rail electrification, he did cancel the procurement of diesel multiple units in 2015

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dpm25 t1_j5w6g6d wrote

https://bankerandtradesman.com/baker-seeks-order-for-battery-electrification-of-commuter-trains/

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ToadScoper OP t1_j5wgj6f wrote

Battery trains were only conceptually proposed last summer due to a mandate within a environmental bill to recommend electrification alternatives- no contracts were ever finalized for hybrid service delivery. As it stands, there really is no current plan to electrify the commuter rail

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dpm25 t1_j5wgsml wrote

Battery trains was the baker veto. Legislature called for no new diesel purchases by 2030 per that article.

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samirfreiha t1_j5zysgn wrote

honestly a great veto, battery trains suck ass

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dpm25 t1_j6003w7 wrote

No, the line item veto was an advocation for battery trains.

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DickBatman t1_j5vs2w9 wrote

Electrify whoever's in charge of the mbta while they're at it

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yuvng_matt t1_j5wai03 wrote

12 years? Holy shit that’s ridiculous

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ToadScoper OP t1_j5whjvn wrote

What’s interesting is that Amtrak was able to electrify 322 miles of the NEC between Boston and New Haven within only 5 years… this was in the 90s

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dante662 t1_j5yki7s wrote

Silly question, but does the MBTA own the air rights above the tracks?

​

I'm guessing the major issues are tunnels overpasses which will either need to be raised, or they will need the battery hybrid trains to pass through those sections.

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A_Participant t1_j5yxj9f wrote

15 minute intervals on trains would be a game changer for commuter rails. Once an hour during prime commute times is so limiting. One of the biggest frustrations of the commuter rail today is that if you have to plan your day around the schedule and if get held up a few extra minutes at your work or appointment, you lose an hour milling about at South Station.

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MiloMinderbinder-22 t1_j5zdvip wrote

>you lose an hour milling about at South Station

Or at North Station. Yay for no North-South Rail Link?

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KittensWithChickens t1_j5zhem6 wrote

This is so underrated and baffling to me. I’m from NY originally and our commuter rail isn’t great but there are at least 10 between 7-10 am. Why can’t Boston do the same?? It makes no sense.

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KittensWithChickens t1_j5zhfgf wrote

This is so underrated and baffling to me. I’m from NY originally and our commuter rail isn’t great but there are at least 10 between 7-10 am. Why can’t Boston do the same?? It makes no sense.

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Roszo21 t1_j5wcvvo wrote

Except the Needham line, which is one of the densest and most traveled but can't be electrified.

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jbray90 t1_j5xjll4 wrote

Orange/Green. Amtrak already has claimed capacity max on the NEC in the next 15 years so Needham will become forced transfer at Forest Hills. Don’t take your time legislature

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HistoryMonkey t1_j5ye6eb wrote

It would be nice if Needham ran 15 minute headway shuttle all day and then trains to South Station at rush hour peak.

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jbray90 t1_j5yljc7 wrote

It would, but Needham is being sacrificed (necessarily) at the altar of bigger fish with more passengers and more room for passenger growth. An electrified Regional Rail with 15 minute frequencies is going to eat up even more slots than Amtrak had provisioned for. There is no future where Needham doesn’t become a shuttle service to Forest Hills at rush hour. If the whole line wants high frequencies to downtown, they are going to have to switch to rapid transit over the commuter rail.

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Roszo21 t1_j5z7jj4 wrote

It's really embarrassing that West Roxbury and Roslindale are about to be even more grossly underserved by public transit and Wu is saying nothing publicly (despite it being her own neighborhood) because white people.

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Roszo21 t1_j5yf6r7 wrote

An OL stop at Roslindale Village is a viable option within that timeline (or much earlier), but any other expansion seems highly unlikely even though the alternative is screwing over thousands of commuters.

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SkiingAway t1_j5ytpow wrote

Uh, why?

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Roszo21 t1_j5z6g00 wrote

Can't be electrified may not be the right term... there's a shared track issue where it essentially can't run any faster than 60 minutes no matter what so the goal of electrification is moot for the Needham line and in fact will only become worse as other lines run more frequently. Others have explained it on here better than I can. Essentially the MBTA's only plan for better serving the line is to sunset it; extending the OL from Forest Hills through West Roxbury and extending the D line from Newton through Needham. The OL extension would be expensive but fairly doable; the Green line would be a nightmare and is highly unlikely anytime soon. Needham would rather limited service than no service for some long period of time... they know the legislature allocating huge funds to serve one millionaire town is slim in this climate. And they have the power to cock block West Rox/Roslindale.

Essentially the most likely and least expensive 10 - 15 year solution (which would also serve the greatest number of workers, particularly lower income workers) is expanded rapid bus service through West Roxbury to Roslindale Village and extending the OL one stop to RV. I'm actually surprised elected officials haven't yet begun loudly clamoring for it.

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SkiingAway t1_j5zdwnu wrote

Ah, yes, no arguments with anything you've said there, just wasn't sure what obstacle to electrification itself you were seeing.

That said, it may be cheaper to just electrify it rather than deal with a unicorn in terms of equipment if we are at the point of full electrification elsewhere and still can't make a decision on the extensions. I agree it'll likely be one of the last to do anything with.

Being a low-frequency branch doesn't inherently mean it can't be electric - NJT's Gladstone Branch runs a relatively similar operation that way. (mostly single-track, often requires a transfer to a different service to get to where you likely want to go).

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sloadslayer t1_j5wbmwj wrote

I wonder if "slow zones" will still exist like Savin Hill because if the train goes faster than 15 MPH everyone might die.

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MiloMinderbinder-22 t1_j5zlffj wrote

From the article: "Three lines that serve environmental justice populations — Newburyport/Rockport from North Station to Beverly, Fairmount from South Station to Readville and the entire Providence/Stoughton Line — would be electrified first, by Dec. 31, 2024."

Sorry, but what the heck does that mean?

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SaveCachalot346 t1_j63dsp2 wrote

From mass.gov

"In Massachusetts, an environmental justice population is a neighborhood where one or more of the following criteria are true:

the annual median household income is 65 percent or less of the statewide annual median household income

minorities make up 40 percent or more of the population

25 percent or more of households identify as speaking English less than "very well"

minorities make up 25 percent or more of the population and the annual median household income of the municipality in which the neighborhood is located does not exceed 150 percent of the statewide annual median household income.

The Executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs (EEA) uses data from the 2019 American Community Survey to identify environmental justice population areas in Massachusetts. Policy makers and state agencies can then use this information to communicate more effectively with communities affected by their work"

More details on the thought behind it here

https://www.mass.gov/service-details/objectives-of-environmental-justice

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garrdon t1_j5wnn7j wrote

Why?

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dpm25 t1_j5ws7dj wrote

Electric trains are faster, cheaper, more efficient, and oh yeah, faster plus EMUs can be run with much smaller train sets on weekends etc.

Not to mention the exhaust issue in tunnels. NSRL when?

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Elfich47 t1_j5wna93 wrote

Where is the electricity going to come from? And the transmission lines?

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Anustart15 t1_j5x3jjw wrote

The same places all the other electricity in this state comes from.

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Elfich47 t1_j5yg3v5 wrote

You miss the point: mass is pushing to limit or eliminate gas permits for new construction, so that will need more electricity. Plus electric cars. Now electric trains. That is a lot of electricity to be found.

Edit

Downvoting me will not change the fact that increasing the load on the electrical grid is likely to cause problems, and the electric trains are just another stone on that well intentioned path to hell.

Until the electrical provider issues are resolved, this is going to become a gigantic mess in about 10 years.

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