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The legislation effectively resurrects the 2019 fiscal control board service delivery plan for electrification that was later shelved when that board was dissolved. With a new governor and big shakeups looming over the MBTA, I can see how politicians want to get this plan on track and move away from the short-sighted hybrid concept.

That being said, the legislation is very half-baked and infeasible, especially regarding the electrification deadlines for 2024. Even if EMUs are ordered in the next 1 to 2 years, the T has no facilities that can maintain or receive electric regional trains; leasing interim electric locomotives from Amtrak is also difficult since they’re already stretched thin for motive power on the NEC. Likewise, the Providence/Stoughton line station sidings are not electrified past providence and requires a substantial amount of infrastructure installation (also forget about electrifying Newburyport/rockport or Fairmount by 2024, even in a perfect world that’s unrealistic for the MBTA).

While I don’t think this bill will go anywhere, I’m certain a lot more similar bills will be submitted over the coming months.

Wasn't this already passed in some version and line item vetoed by Baker?

Will this require actual electrification or will it be those horrible battery trains?

The T can't even electrify the Orange line reliably.

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You know some NIMBY will complain about the cateneries being unsightly yet think nothing of the rats nest of wiring that are over streets.

Bringing up a great point: those rats nest of wiring shouldn’t be above the street in main metro areas to begin with. Just put them underground and avoid all the power outages every minor storm.

I don't think this will get NIMBYd. Diesel is slower, louder, smellier. Literally no advantage for those that live near tracks.

The only issue would be the construction but honestly that's like a few months (hopefully) of hassle.

Electrify whoever's in charge of the mbta while they're at it

Oh I see this going well 😒

>Below budget and on time, I bet!

"Just put them underground". Fucking lol

"Just" is doing some mighty heavy lifting there

Massachusetts has a similar population density to Germany. Every tiny village in Germany has their power lines underground. Nothing to “fucking lol” about. It’s doable.

That's not the issue, it's the other shit that's buried.

A family friend of ours recently had to bury about 300 feet of power lines on their business' property and it cost 350k.

The real kick in the pants is that the power company offered to bury all of the lines on the property (probably half a mile or more) 15 years ago for 150k, but our friend's business wasn't able to afford it at the time.

And you think nothing was buried in Germany when they did it there?

Edit: just to clarify. The government has a pretty damn good idea what’s buried where here. Hence calling them before you dig. They can tell what’s there. Germany didn’t even know. Plans were gone after WW2, if they even existed from before. And there were bombs from the war everywhere as well. They still got it done.

Not in terms of commuter rail electrification, he did cancel the procurement of diesel multiple units in 2015

https://bankerandtradesman.com/baker-seeks-order-for-battery-electrification-of-commuter-trains/

Perhaps an even more relevant example, Cambridge has already buried most of their power lines.

Feels like you're underestimating NIMBYs here...

12 years? Holy shit that’s ridiculous

I wonder if "slow zones" will still exist like Savin Hill because if the train goes faster than 15 MPH everyone might die.

The article discusses this. They're hybrid battery-wired trains so they don't have to rebuild tunnels and bridges, but the trains will otherwise be powered by catenary wires.

Except the Needham line, which is one of the densest and most traveled but can't be electrified.

Keep in mind battery trains were only conceptually proposed last summer and no contracts were finalized. The actual bill recommends full system electrification instead of hybrid electrification

Battery trains were only conceptually proposed last summer due to a mandate within a environmental bill to recommend electrification alternatives- no contracts were ever finalized for hybrid service delivery. As it stands, there really is no current plan to electrify the commuter rail

Battery trains was the baker veto. Legislature called for no new diesel purchases by 2030 per that article.

What’s interesting is that Amtrak was able to electrify 322 miles of the NEC between Boston and New Haven within only 5 years… this was in the 90s

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Where is the electricity going to come from? And the transmission lines?

Why?

Electric trains are faster, cheaper, more efficient, and oh yeah, faster plus EMUs can be run with much smaller train sets on weekends etc.

Not to mention the exhaust issue in tunnels. NSRL when?

That's why they got it done, everything had been totally destroyed. So everything had to be rebuilt. Boston never got that, so shit is all over the place down there.

If it was easy it would be done already, since it would be safer.

Also at the same.point they don't know what down there. Not perfectly that's why even with dog safe things get hit

Why is the argument for everything “well Europe does it so we should do”. It’s like watching boomers meme on Facebook.

Nope. Power lines were put underground in the 70s. Germany had been rebuild by then and was deep into the Wirtschaftswunder.

Well. The person before me mentioned it can’t be done. I showed an example that it can. Sorry I hurt your “America is always the best” brain with it.

The point was they had to rebuild everything so everything was organized. Not that it was done all at once.

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But it wasn’t. No one knew what was in the ground. Hell, there were bombs all over the place still, they even find them regularly during construction work right now. They needed to build as much housing as possible in as little time as possible. The building material was often the rubble from destroyed buildings. Electricity was rebuilt quickly as well. Germany had a fully function electricity network again within a few years after the war. With utility poles like the US, cause it had to be fast. Then, in the 70s, the conscious decision was made to put them underground. Germany was fully rebuild by then already. Saying that decision 30 years after the war is connected to the build up is simply wrong. Another great way to show this rebuild argument doesn’t make sense is simply using another country as example: Switzerland. They also mainly have underground powerlines and we’re not destroyed during the war at all. Now, I have to say that I do not know anything about the history about this in Switzerland, but their underground lines are for sure not based on rebuilding the country from rubbles. Denmark is the same as well.

Nothing to do my brain or the country, it’s a false equivalency fallacy commonplace in this sub.

It can be done, at a prohibitively expensive cost. There isn’t a really benefit to it either other than a nicer view maybe.

You’d have to bury local substations and long transmission lines to fully be free from weather disruptions.

I love disagreeing with the /r/Boston hive mind.

The same places all the other electricity in this state comes from.

So in your mind, it's not a benefit to reduce weather related power outages unless you can eliminate them completely?

Orange/Green. Amtrak already has claimed capacity max on the NEC in the next 15 years so Needham will become forced transfer at Forest Hills. Don’t take your time legislature

So? That's not an issue what so ever.

It would be nice if Needham ran 15 minute headway shuttle all day and then trains to South Station at rush hour peak.

An OL stop at Roslindale Village is a viable option within that timeline (or much earlier), but any other expansion seems highly unlikely even though the alternative is screwing over thousands of commuters.

You miss the point: mass is pushing to limit or eliminate gas permits for new construction, so that will need more electricity. Plus electric cars. Now electric trains. That is a lot of electricity to be found.

Edit

Downvoting me will not change the fact that increasing the load on the electrical grid is likely to cause problems, and the electric trains are just another stone on that well intentioned path to hell.

Until the electrical provider issues are resolved, this is going to become a gigantic mess in about 10 years.

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Lol no I think the people who argue for this grew up on a nice suburban culd a sac with burried lines and have no idea how the grids work.

Worth it at what cost?

Give me an estimate if one exists.

I live next to a commuter line. I will support electric trains whole heartedly, overheadlines or no.

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The electric green line trains are so, so much quieter.

Silly question, but does the MBTA own the air rights above the tracks?

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I'm guessing the major issues are tunnels overpasses which will either need to be raised, or they will need the battery hybrid trains to pass through those sections.

It would, but Needham is being sacrificed (necessarily) at the altar of bigger fish with more passengers and more room for passenger growth. An electrified Regional Rail with 15 minute frequencies is going to eat up even more slots than Amtrak had provisioned for. There is no future where Needham doesn’t become a shuttle service to Forest Hills at rush hour. If the whole line wants high frequencies to downtown, they are going to have to switch to rapid transit over the commuter rail.

Right? I was amazed at how often there are power cuts after winter storms here compared to the UK. The difference is lines are buried in the UK.

Agreed but

> a few months

Overly optimistic

Uh, why?

15 minute intervals on trains would be a game changer for commuter rails. Once an hour during prime commute times is so limiting. One of the biggest frustrations of the commuter rail today is that if you have to plan your day around the schedule and if get held up a few extra minutes at your work or appointment, you lose an hour milling about at South Station.

Can't be electrified may not be the right term... there's a shared track issue where it essentially can't run any faster than 60 minutes no matter what so the goal of electrification is moot for the Needham line and in fact will only become worse as other lines run more frequently. Others have explained it on here better than I can. Essentially the MBTA's only plan for better serving the line is to sunset it; extending the OL from Forest Hills through West Roxbury and extending the D line from Newton through Needham. The OL extension would be expensive but fairly doable; the Green line would be a nightmare and is highly unlikely anytime soon. Needham would rather limited service than no service for some long period of time... they know the legislature allocating huge funds to serve one millionaire town is slim in this climate. And they have the power to cock block West Rox/Roslindale.

Essentially the most likely and least expensive 10 - 15 year solution (which would also serve the greatest number of workers, particularly lower income workers) is expanded rapid bus service through West Roxbury to Roslindale Village and extending the OL one stop to RV. I'm actually surprised elected officials haven't yet begun loudly clamoring for it.

It's really embarrassing that West Roxbury and Roslindale are about to be even more grossly underserved by public transit and Wu is saying nothing publicly (despite it being her own neighborhood) because white people.

>you lose an hour milling about at South Station

Or at North Station. Yay for no North-South Rail Link?

Ah, yes, no arguments with anything you've said there, just wasn't sure what obstacle to electrification itself you were seeing.

That said, it may be cheaper to just electrify it rather than deal with a unicorn in terms of equipment if we are at the point of full electrification elsewhere and still can't make a decision on the extensions. I agree it'll likely be one of the last to do anything with.

Being a low-frequency branch doesn't inherently mean it can't be electric - NJT's Gladstone Branch runs a relatively similar operation that way. (mostly single-track, often requires a transfer to a different service to get to where you likely want to go).

This is so underrated and baffling to me. I’m from NY originally and our commuter rail isn’t great but there are at least 10 between 7-10 am. Why can’t Boston do the same?? It makes no sense.

This is so underrated and baffling to me. I’m from NY originally and our commuter rail isn’t great but there are at least 10 between 7-10 am. Why can’t Boston do the same?? It makes no sense.

From the article: "Three lines that serve environmental justice populations — Newburyport/Rockport from North Station to Beverly, Fairmount from South Station to Readville and the entire Providence/Stoughton Line — would be electrified first, by Dec. 31, 2024."

Sorry, but what the heck does that mean?

honestly a great veto, battery trains suck ass

No, the line item veto was an advocation for battery trains.

That’s cuz all those new cars are “green” and feed electricity back to the transformers and what not that were built in the 80’s so they short out. All that work they did last fall during the shut down was the replace old rail, ballast and ties. Really didn’t accomplish a whole lot

From mass.gov

"In Massachusetts, an environmental justice population is a neighborhood where one or more of the following criteria are true:

the annual median household income is 65 percent or less of the statewide annual median household income

minorities make up 40 percent or more of the population

25 percent or more of households identify as speaking English less than "very well"

minorities make up 25 percent or more of the population and the annual median household income of the municipality in which the neighborhood is located does not exceed 150 percent of the statewide annual median household income.

The Executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs (EEA) uses data from the 2019 American Community Survey to identify environmental justice population areas in Massachusetts. Policy makers and state agencies can then use this information to communicate more effectively with communities affected by their work"

More details on the thought behind it here

https://www.mass.gov/service-details/objectives-of-environmental-justice