Submitted by Away-Pepper-9239 t3_11056fr in dataisbeautiful
Alternative-Sea-6238 t1_j87x0qf wrote
Reply to comment by Steeled14 in [OC]Combating The Opioid Epidemic Medicaid's Opioid Prescription Decline by Away-Pepper-9239
Some non-opoid analgesics include: paracetamol NSAIDs e.g. ibuprofen, diclofenac, naproxen aspirin Ketamine Duloxetine (used for.neuropathic pain) Gabapentinoids such as gabapentin and pregabalin (also for.neuropathic pain) Local anaesthetics such as lidocaine, bupivacaine, ropivacaine (can be used in creams/gels/injections) Clonidine Magnesium Alcohol (studies have found it to be superior than paracetamol in certain quantities though obviously is also addictive!) Heat/cold therapies Steroids such as dexamethasone can provide some analgesic effect TENS machines Nitrous oxide
Many of these are situational e.g. if you have a deep pain than local anaesthetic cream likely won't penetrate deep enough, but a deep injection or nerve block of local anaesthic such as bupivacaine may work wonders.
Steeled14 t1_j889qw2 wrote
Good list but yeah very situational. Also I do not know if I am an outlier but unless I have swelling I do not take NSAIDs and acetaminophen has never done much in my experience. Maybe it helped with one headache in my life haha. Tylenol liver issues and NSAID issues but they make special formulas for longer term use now (coated to not harm GI).
Gabapentinoids maybe but it has its own side effects - might not be great for neurology long term like most things though I guess but might be more pronounced in a drug like pregabalin (neuroplasticity).
Clonodine and fluoxetine don’t seem very light either not to bash them if they work great for someone and they do not mind side effects.
Local anesthesia seems to have some serious draw backs from my quick read and makes sense why I haven’t heard of it more.
I’ve known someone who had back pain from like a pinched nerve in a herniated disk get a steroid shot that lasts a long time but I don’t know how many situations that can be applied to and what steroid side effects are like.
Alcohol seems a bit meh to suggest as chronic pain reliever and magnesium seems like a long shot but if it works I’m glad for those people. I do not use pain medicine or have had issues with chronic pain so I do not mean to bash the list but yeah we are in desperate need for drugs that produce analgesia or block pain like opioids do.
Alternative-Sea-6238 t1_j88bfoz wrote
Correct in that it would be great if we had more drugs to choose from and yes, like all drugs they all have side effects, pros and cons and are situational. No drug is perfect.
Plus I listed analgesics because that is what someone asked for a list of but I didn't mean that all are suitable for chronic pain. Very little is. In fact the best therapies often aren't pharmaceutical for chronic pain.
R.e. steroid side effects they include increase in glucose levels, reduction in immune system response, a decrease in endogenous steroid production, increaser risk of GI bleeding and weight gain/hunger. Very unlikely to get these from a single injection like your friend though and actually it's unclear why single shot steroids remain so effective for as long as they sometimes do.
Steeled14 t1_j88c77d wrote
You’re good I was just looping it back into the conversation which is opioid replacements. And yes I only emphasize side effects because the drastic severities for example dementia later in life versus some tiny weight loss or gain.
designer_of_drugs t1_j88k9da wrote
Many of these are not appropriate pain relievers for outpatient or chronic use. It’s like a person who doesn’t know anything about medicine wrote the post…
UrbanSpartan t1_j88s21r wrote
We literally use all of the drugs he listed for outpatient and inpatient management. In fact many of the post op patients now get High dose Ibuprofen, acetaminophen and Gabapentin as multi modal pain control as an alternative to opioids. I prescribe many of these daily.
designer_of_drugs t1_j88sm4g wrote
Ketamine, alcohol, nitrous oxide… short acting injectable local anesthetic. None are reasonable for chronic pain management. Additionally the evidence for gabapentoids working outside neuropathy is extremely poor.
I didn’t say all were impractical, I said many.
…and high dose NSAIDs will end up killing more of your chronic pain patients than opioids.
Obviously multimodal is the way to go, but it’s also wrong to pretend we have easy, effective solutions for opioid replacement.
Alternative-Sea-6238 t1_j88lnu6 wrote
Firstly my post was simply a list of analgesics. That was what was asked for.
Secondly you may think that. And you are obviously entitled to your opinion. Your opinion is not seemingly well based in fact. Or perhaps maybe your reply is by someone who who doesn't know about outpatient or chronic pain use. I don't know.
I mention paracetamol, naproxen, ibuprofen, diclofenac, gabapentin, pregabalin, duloxetine, magnesium, local anaesthetics, heath and cold therapies, all of which are available and appropriate for some outpatient or chronic use. So basically the majority of what I listed.
designer_of_drugs t1_j88m0xx wrote
You made a list of drugs that are not practical for most situations. It gives a totally misleading picture of the state of pain management as is related to opioid replacement.
Alternative-Sea-6238 t1_j88nup7 wrote
I made a list of drugs for pain relief as that was what was asked for. There are very few situations (arguably none) in which all drugs are practical.
Expecting any drug to replace opioid is very unrealistic at this time and as I have commented on, dealing with chronic pains should be multidisciplinary and not entirely reliant on just pharmaceutical therapy for the most effective way of tackling the issue.
One of the largest barriers is tackling patient (and indeed many healthcare provider) mindsets and psychologies. Opioid rotation is not a long term solution. Opioid reduction is the main aim but requires a huge turnaround of thinking/effort/money.
Prevention is better than cure generally. Stopping the opioid problem in a patient beforenit deveoops into a massive chronic issue is far better than trying to sort it when they aren on 160mg BD and it's five years down the line. One situation that can be worked on is the acute pain apatient who comes to hospital (e.g. After a trauma). If the analgesia is effectively tackled then, with the likes of the medications I have mentioned, and they get discharged without the need for ever escalating opioid prescriptions, how is that a bad thing? If you disagree and you think they should just get ever escalating doses of single agents then, again, that's your opinion.
As of yet there is no panacea and I doubt there ever will be. Based on your name I'm guessing that you are somehow involved in the pharmaceutical industry? If this is the case then no doubt you are aware of how difficult it is to create a drug that has decent efficacy, acceptable tolerance and safety profile and a cost efficient process of manufacturing, distribution and marketing.
I never said
berry1337 t1_j886n28 wrote
none of these treatments are effective against severe pain.
Alternative-Sea-6238 t1_j88a459 wrote
Wrong. If you have a foot amputated I can block the pain completely with a nerve block of just 20mls of local anaesthetic in the correct locations. Or I can give you ketamine and your pain is no longer an issue.
Similarly I know patients who cry out with their pains and they are on 160mg of morphine twice a day with extra opioid doses in between. Blatantly if they are crying out, the opioid are nit effective.
I've anaesthetised patients for operations, given them 20mg morphine and they are still in severe pain in recovery. Then you give them some IV paracetamol and diclofenac and the pain goes from 10/10 to them happy and chatting.
It all depends on the situation.
Steeled14 t1_j88co90 wrote
Sorry to ask so much but we’re learning lots here.
Ketamine is a new one for me in terms of chronic pain. You remain conscious, like it’s a low dose?
I’ve never done intravenous acetaminophen plus an NSAID so I could see that being much better than oral potentially.
How often can you do nerve blocks and what’s the longest they last like half a day?
Alternative-Sea-6238 t1_j88fggi wrote
Ketamine is very variable in terms of side effects depending on the doses you use. I doubt it would be good for long term use but acutely it is awesome because it remains cardiovascular stable so it's great for trauma patients who have lost loads of blood, it's a bronchodilator so it's great for asthmatics and you don't have as much respiratory/airway loss like other anaesthetic induction agents. But that is all from a general anaesthetic dosing point of view.
At lower doses I've used it for dressing changes on burns patients and for manipulating kids dislocated limbs. You give a small dose, wait for them to go into a sort of fugue state and then pop the shoulder back in.
It is associated with the potential for profound hallucinations and increased salivation though. It provides a dissociated consciousness. One patient described it as like he was watching what we were doing to him as if it was like watching a TV show. No pain at all but it didn't feel real. Some hate that feeling, some don't care.
Again though I suspect long term use, which I am not familiar with,comes with side effects and problems.
Nerve blocks can last between a few hours and a full day. Depends on what you use, where it is used and how much. But it's labour intensive. Not really something that can be done every day. Plus there is alway the risk that the needle causes damage to the nerve if the person isn't careful with it.
A few places for chronic pain give IV lidocaine infusions. You come in for a few hours, get the infusion with monitoring. Then go home the next day. Again labour intensive and so often the funding isn't available to have it in many locations.
The best therapies in terms of long term benefits are usually physiotherapy and psychology. Ultimately if a pain becomes a chronic pain, the neural pathways alter and essentially don't work how they should do. Therefore removing the pain entirely often becomes impossible and those two therapies help the most because they help the patients accept and deal with the pain so they can get on with life. Unfortunately many patients are unwilling to accept this reality and believe there is a magic cure, a silver bullet, a perfect pill that sorts everything out.
[deleted] t1_j88fh3e wrote
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[deleted] t1_j88icu7 wrote
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