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2puritan4reddit t1_j9w9a3b wrote

Reply to comment by Mushroom_Tip in [OC] How much territory Russia and Ukraine hold at one year of war by gridnews

It may not have been millions, I may have been mistaken. But judging based on PerpetualHillman's account of what happened, it must've been in the tens of thousands at the minimum. Also, media generally focuses on those who successfully fled (weren't prevented by the Ukrainian government from leaving, so mostly women and children) rather than those who were prevented (overwhelmingly fighting age men).

I don't think u/PerpetualHillman was expecting to be used as a source as most reddit users don't interact with communities like r/wojackcompass but I thought it was relevant to the conversation.

>And truth be told I've done that a few times knowing there's no way to verify it because my identity is anonymous.

You've done what a few times?

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Mushroom_Tip t1_j9wa2bt wrote

>You've done what a few times?

Embellished the truth knowing it couldn't be verified because of anonymity.

And I can concede tens of thousands without a source especially in a country of 40 million.

Even if they were all opposed to Ukraine and wanted Russia to win, it would be a small minority in the grand scheme of things. But Ukrainians aren't shy about expressing their opinions and I'm not aware of protests in any Ukrainian cities demanding the government surrender. Even though those still remaining in Ukraine feel the brunt of it. And when Ukrainians protest, they really protest.

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2puritan4reddit t1_j9wbdpu wrote

Well, there's media bias. Since those who were prevented from leaving aren't covered as much due to a combination of western media bias (we don't see or hear them so we don't think about them as much) and also for propaganda purposes (portraying the Ukrainian people as more committed to the war than they really are). u/PerpetualHillman did not give an exact number.

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Mushroom_Tip t1_j9wc8en wrote

Given we still see protests out of Russia leak online, even though they literally haul people off and try to shut down any dissenting voices, if people were unhappy and wanted their government to surrender, we would see them marching or we would see them being being arrested or attacked for speaking out.

The question is what would you expect to see if Ukrainians didn't want their country to continue fighting? And where are you seeing this?

And I disagree a bit about Western media bias. It's not a monolith. OAN just did a show on Dugin. There is always a market out there for things that make Ukraine look bad.

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2puritan4reddit t1_j9wcpso wrote

By the way, I never said Ukrainians want their country to stop fighting. I'm saying the Ukrainian people may not be as committed to the war as western propaganda may imply.

>And I disagree a bit about Western media bias. It's not a monolith. OAN just did a show on Dugin. There is always a market out there for things that make Ukraine look bad.

There's also Fox news. I was mostly thinking about social media and such when I wrote those comments regarding propaganda.

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PerpetualHillman t1_j9wc9j6 wrote

I only saw what I saw. I cannot speak on the issue from any objective standpoint.

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2puritan4reddit t1_j9we35k wrote

Woah. It's you! I saw your username appear on my notifications and stared at it for a few seconds in surprise. I may disagree with some of your life choices but I do enjoy reading your compasses.

You might want to reply to the other person, since he doesn't view you as credible and all that.

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the_3d6 t1_j9xtris wrote

Tens of thousands are about right, in other words about 1%. Which leaves 99% ready to stay and fight. From what I've heard it takes $3-5k in bribes to leave the country, so at least 20% of people could afford that if they really wanted to

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2puritan4reddit t1_j9z07ea wrote

>Tens of thousands are about right, in other words about 1%. Which leaves 99% ready to stay and fight.

Remember that Ukraine is a small country (its population is half the size of the UK).

>From what I've heard it takes $3-5k in bribes to leave the country, so at least 20% of people could afford that if they really wanted to

Remember that Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe.

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the_3d6 t1_j9z3l2s wrote

>Remember that Ukraine is a small country (its population is half the size of the UK).

~40 millions before the war started, thus ~10M men fit for army. 1% of 10M = 100k

>Remember that Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe.

I know it firsthand - I live in Kyiv )) In IT $3k is quite an average salary. A lot of people earn at least $1k (flat rent prices in Kyiv right now tell that 17k flats are available for renting with median price ~$300/month - which means that a lot of people can afford that, otherwise the price would go down).

So $3-5k is definitely within reach for at least 20% of the population

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