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inorout00 t1_jaham5p wrote

It's not a pay gap. It's an earnings gap. If women were actually being underpaid then all men would be out of jobs because it would be cheaper to employ women.

The "pay" gap has never passed the sniff test

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TheDiano t1_jak5pol wrote

Sir this is Reddit!!! Don’t come in here with that heresy!

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Riegler77 t1_jahvae2 wrote

An employee's pay is their earning.

Employees are hired by humans, humans do not make rational decisions. If a pay gap is caused by a system undervaluation of women's abilities this would cause employers to offer women less.

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Kesshh t1_jahcx57 wrote

That’s like a completely false simplification. Employment has a large number of factors that affect the supply and demand. Proximity to the work location affects available workers. Skill/experience affects available workers. Need for income affects tolerances in pay gap. Lack of choices affects tolerances in pay gap. Just to name a few.

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Autistom t1_jahdyxd wrote

True, that was not the best argument. But calling this a pay gap is intentionally missleading, since it takes averages over all professions for both genders and then implies that the difference means women get paid less for the same work. The truth is though, that almost all pay gap is due to different carreer prefferences between the genders - to use the most cliche example the technological faculties have majority of men while social faculties have majority of women. Once you count in the prefferences, the pay gap shrinks almost to zero.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahfh1n wrote

> The truth is though, that almost all pay gap is due to different carreer prefferences between the genders

Why are critical industries dominated by women paid less on average in the majority of circumstances though?

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Autistom t1_jahg0o0 wrote

Well its sad but it is econnomically impossible (unless you are rooting for communism) to pay a person who helps generate huge profits such as IT specialist or financial analyst the same wage as to someone who is a social services worker. I am not saying that its not an honourable and important profession, but generates much smaller financial value.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahgro3 wrote

It’s interesting that you chose social worker as an example. The gender pay gap has always been observed in bureaucratic jobs that are among the many, many critical functions in society that aren’t measured on income generating ability.

> Well its sad but it is econnomically impossible (unless you are rooting for communism) to pay a person who helps generate huge profits such as IT specialist or financial analyst the same wage as to someone who is a social services worker.

And don’t you think it’s remarkable that all over the world it’s the female dominated gigs that we just can’t seem to justify paying more for. Can’t possibly pay the nurses more even in the midst of a labour shortage … but the IT guy needs a competitive package without question. Isn’t it weird that that situation always seems to replicate along gender lines all over the world?

Forget the justice off it or any ideas about changing it, don’t you just find that phenomenon interesting? One hell of a coincidence, right?

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Autistom t1_jahim73 wrote

No I dont really find that remarkable. On average, men are more interrested in things and women in people. Thats why the prefference difference is mostly the same acrost the world and why the female preffered professions pay less - you sell things easier than you sell empathy.

As to the IT guys vs Nurses example - there is no person deciding these things. No evil patriarch setting the wages. I would guess that there is greater demand for IT professionals (as they generate more profit) than for nurses on the market or that there are less people capable of becoming IT professionals than those capable of becomming nurses in the population. It has nothing to do with gender.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahj1y6 wrote

I can’t help but feel like you still have a pretty basic misunderstanding of what the words “gender pay gap” describe.

An evil overlord is not really part of it.

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Autistom t1_jahn7er wrote

Oh I think we agree on the fact that women preffered professions are paid less, even though not intentionally and that can be a meaning of these words.

But what most people take of the “pay gap” is that women are somehow paid less regardless of the profession and that is wrong and has severe consequences in the society.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahp9nt wrote

> Oh I think we agree on the fact that women preffered professions are paid less, even though not intentionally and that can be a meaning of these words.

That is literally the meaning of those words. Anything else is just a failure to understand what the term was even referring to.

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Kingkyle18 t1_jal3xg6 wrote

The term is literally used over and over for “women get paid less for doing the same thing a man does”…..it’s wrong and only gullible people fall for it

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Kingkyle18 t1_jal3s1k wrote

You have it ingrained in your head that businesses are so greedy but they only want to pay men….both can’t be true

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jalbcoc wrote

You don’t seem to understand what the term gender pay gap describes

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Kingkyle18 t1_jalcscn wrote

Haha you again saying that no one understands “gender pay gap”….glad you have your own understanding of words unique to yourself

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jaljfdo wrote

Most people understand it. You and the others who think it’s an attack on men clearly don’t

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Pressed_Thumb t1_jaivern wrote

I think the problem in your understanding is assuming any salary should be measured or "justified" by anything other than the income generated by the employee.

In capitalism, prices come from the market process: supply and demand, that's it.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jajep1t wrote

You think all jobs generate income?

Nurses? Teachers? Police? Firefighters?

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Pressed_Thumb t1_jam0i2k wrote

Yes, I do. All those services are useful and are paid for, they add value to people in society.

Just because you relate those jobs with public services (that you don't pay directly), it doesn't mean they couldn't be priced properly by the market.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jam0qku wrote

So you seem to acknowledge that a gender pay gap exists, you just don’t think it’s something that needs addressing then, even when you’re talking about jobs specifically paid for with tax dollars

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Pressed_Thumb t1_jannixx wrote

I'm not well acquainted with the data and I don't think the data presented in this graph is useful at all to understand the issue (as I discussed in other comments). So I can't say I acknowledge that it exists.

I would say this is something that needs to be addressed if it was clear that women make less than men when performing exactly the same job, out of sheer discrimination.

By looking at this data alone, there could be so many different phenomena skewing the average. It could be that women prefer professions that make less money. It could be that women have a greater chance of stopping their careers to take care of their families. If that's the case, then the gap in the average is not an issue, IMO.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jaokytd wrote

There are indeed many different phenomena that skew the average male. Women choosing professions that make less money is among them.

The question is, of course, why is it that professions chosen by women almost always seem to be valued less monetarily, even when they’re among the most important and in demand jobs in society.

Taking care of families is another part of it.

And, while it’s not an issue for you, it is an issue for women and the government who have to plan and account for the personal and community impacts of an enormous section of society being less prepared for an independent and healthy retirement

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Pressed_Thumb t1_jaqm5gt wrote

What do you mean you say a profession is valued less? Do you want to suggest that it's done deliberately by someone or something?

The value of each profession is always a reflection of the market, that is, supply and demand. The employee always wants to be paid more and the employer always wants to pay as little as possible (regardless of the employee's gender).

If women were universally valued less as employees, that would just create a massive opportunity for companies hiring only women to have margins greater than their competitors. In a short time, many other companies would seize the same opportunity, increasing the demand for women's labor and thus normalizing the wages across gender.

My speculative take on this is that the biological differences between genders reflect on their average personality traits, making them choose jobs differently.

For being more competitive, men tend to pursue high-income careers and positions. Also, men have a predilection for things instead of people, which is a driver for choosing STEM careers. On the other hand, women gravitate more toward the humanities and don't focus so much on increasing their income. Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but on average, this seems to be the case.

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Autistom t1_jan9qay wrote

On the contrary - its precisely because these jobs dont generate direct income that the have to be paid from your taxes and therefore are paid less than positions in the free market where you can increase salaries of the most valuable positions to attract better employees and generate more profit.

But, as the others have probably realised by now, you will just rewert to your ultimate “you dont understand the term” or “your opinion is just incorrect” argument again. Alas this is my last comment in this pointless crusade - try to be thankful that the system works even though you dont fully understand it is my final advice (othervise the people working these unfarly underpaid social services but we doing manual labour by now).

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jao50hc wrote

What a complete load of high school rubbish

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Autistom t1_jao6dfw wrote

And again - thats not an argument. You are not capable of defending your believes so you resort to insults.

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Kingkyle18 t1_jal2sj6 wrote

Can’t explain economics to psychology majors…..

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Pressed_Thumb t1_jahfjpa wrote

Very insightful. Considering what you said, would the next step in the analysis be to normalize all salaries by dividing by the profession average?

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Riegler77 t1_jahw8a6 wrote

One's profession is not just affected by one's preference. If women are less likely to be promoted to higher-paying positions regardless of their abilities this will cause an unfair pay gap that will not show up once you normalize by position.

Anyway, even after accounting for position there is still a pay gap.

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Pressed_Thumb t1_jaicifl wrote

If that's the case, the gap would show up when normalizing for industry or sector. Actually, there might come nice insights from those normalizations.

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Autistom t1_jahhne3 wrote

Yeah that sounds like a way to do it. I would just take the pay difference in each profession separately and then made an average of that.

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TheDiano t1_jak5m1y wrote

I didn’t read your comment but starting with “That’s like a” doesn’t really help whatever point you’re trying to make

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahb41u wrote

You just don’t understand the concept, it seems

“Underpaid” is not what anyone is talking about. They’re discussing the social phenomenon that sees jobs dominated by women earning less than men occurring right across the planet, and the various social implications of it.

It’s weird that you guys feel victimised by this discussion

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Any-Bottle-4910 t1_jahm1hx wrote

Not victimized, just falsely accused. Women are just as smart on average as men. Zero difference, though the distribution curve is different. The data is clear.
Women go to college knowing their career choice doesn’t make as much, and do it anyway.

Here’s an anecdote-
I got my latest degree in gaming and simulation. It pays well. The male female ratio was at least 10:1. The degree had 3 tracks: coding, management, and graphics. The expected pay for each is in the same order, and made well known throughout the program. I met only 2 girls in the management track, and all the rest were in graphics. Zero picked coding. Not one!
When I asked, I got the exact same answer each time: “I don’t want to do that”.
Well, I didn’t want to do management. I wanted to do graphics. Desperately in fact. The difference? They didn’t have the income pressure I did. I HAD TO CHASE THE CASH. They just did what they liked.
I imagine several of them are now complaining they don’t make as much as some fellow graduates because of an “ism”. Riiiight.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahm6ch wrote

Accused of what?

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Any-Bottle-4910 t1_jai1zcr wrote

Men actively seeking to hold women back or down by underpaying them.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jajegr5 wrote

Where did someone say that?

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Any-Bottle-4910 t1_jam1idi wrote

Have you read anything anywhere ever? Start with this post’s comments.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jam1rf1 wrote

The only people making that claim are guys like you, who are claiming it doesn’t exist because you’ve failed to understand what it means or what is being represented by data such as that in the OP.

The fact that many of you bought a ridiculous line from some Peterson-like clown doesn’t make it any less ridiculous, unfortunately.

Gender pay gaps are a real thing - and they’re not the product of any nefarious conspiracy .

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Any-Bottle-4910 t1_jam2rs6 wrote

Yeah, the Patriarchy made me say that. My bad.
I thought I was disagreeing with you on the merits. Now I see that the problem is that I just don’t understand. If I did, I could ignore the math and feel better about my new found moral superiority.
I thought the constant drumbeat about men and the patriarchy was leveled at men and the patriarchy, but I was wrong. It’s “the system”, and we can’t blame that on men nor the patriarchy, except when we do, until someone calls that out, and then we don’t. Got it.

So then who’s fault is it?

Apparently it just cannot be women knowingly choosing lower paid careers, working less hours, taking more time off, refusing to move for better work, not taking as many risks, not starting as many businesses, not asking for raises, nor dropping out of the workforce entirely because “the kids are growing up so fast, Brad, and I don’t want to miss it.”

So who’s to blame?

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahcq79 wrote

Because it's bs. It's not allowed by law to pay less for a certain gender for the same work where I live and still the gap is huge.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahcuzi wrote

Gender pay gap doesn’t necessarily mean for the same work. It can include that sometimes but that’s not what it means

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahit9c wrote

Yeah that's why it's bs the way it is usually presented and shown. If you want to make a point then, it is about choice and not about the pay.

Women and men chose different jobs, maybe we are not the same? Maybe women with high paying jobs are not as happy as stay home moms? Maybe not, but where is this data?

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahjqs1 wrote

That’s the gender pay gap you just described.

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahkay2 wrote

So what point are you making? What is the problem, is there a problem and whose fault is it?

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahl4ai wrote

> Whose fault is it

It’s no one’s fault. It’s a phenomenon in society that we now find ourselves with many thousands of years into our journey through civilisation. To observe it and discuss it, and wonder about whether and how it provides us with an optimal situation individually, for the community, or for the economy, is not really something you need to see as a source of conflict or a personal attack.

You clearly can see that the gender pay gap is there. You just described it. You can discuss what it is, means or doesn’t mean without immaturely just declaring it doesn’t exist or that it’s some affront.

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahpsre wrote

True, but what I mostly see nowadays in society is to search for victims and perpetrators to correspond to a certain narrative, feminsim.

That's equality of outcome and the way it is done today, it is sexist again.

We should focus on equality of opportunity and the point I am making is that in western societies we have it mostly.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahqlvj wrote

Be that as it may, the gender pay gap exists and presents far more interesting questions than any discussions about some hypothetical individual’s victim narrative

And I think you’re right to call out victim narratives, but I think everyone should be a bit careful of slipping into one. I think some people fall into this trap by inferring accusations that aren’t there in this discussion

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Riegler77 t1_jahuj5f wrote

Where I live murder is illegal, guess what?

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahw24i wrote

So we should be an anarchist society? What point are you trying to make?

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Riegler77 t1_jahwqp5 wrote

My point is that just because there is a law that prohibits pay discrimination does not mean that there is no pay discrimination.

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahxc56 wrote

Then introduce a law where you can inform yourself about your collagues wage& sue the company. - Oh wait, we already have that?

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gnarlycarly18 t1_jahgcx3 wrote

Breaking news: employers often break the fucking law.

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahjxy0 wrote

Breaking news: You can sue companies that break the law.

You can also inform yourself by law about the wage of your colleagues where I live.

So, what point are you trying to make?

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thedragonturtle t1_jahbnm7 wrote

If the chart were redrawn for women with children vs women without children the pay gap would look the same

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahbubt wrote

Correct. Having children and caring for them is another part of why there is a pay gap.

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thedragonturtle t1_jahc78q wrote

To fix this, we need to make it normal for men to take time off work for a couple of years to look after their kids.

It shouldnt be called a pay gap because that makes it sound like women are paid less for the same work.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahckq0 wrote

No one said anything about the same work. If you’ve understood it that way then I think it is fair to say that you haven’t actually understood the concept, isn’t it?

The question is usually about why female dominated industries, despite being absolutely critical to society, tend to have less monetary value attached to them. Examples of such skilled work are frontline medicine and education; critical yet undervalued compared to say, plumbers and bricklayers, which are male dominated skilled professions that attract very good wages

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