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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahb41u wrote

Reply to comment by inorout00 in Gender pay gap difference in select geographies [OC] by Ok_Acanthisitta5799

You just don’t understand the concept, it seems

“Underpaid” is not what anyone is talking about. They’re discussing the social phenomenon that sees jobs dominated by women earning less than men occurring right across the planet, and the various social implications of it.

It’s weird that you guys feel victimised by this discussion

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Any-Bottle-4910 t1_jahm1hx wrote

Not victimized, just falsely accused. Women are just as smart on average as men. Zero difference, though the distribution curve is different. The data is clear.
Women go to college knowing their career choice doesn’t make as much, and do it anyway.

Here’s an anecdote-
I got my latest degree in gaming and simulation. It pays well. The male female ratio was at least 10:1. The degree had 3 tracks: coding, management, and graphics. The expected pay for each is in the same order, and made well known throughout the program. I met only 2 girls in the management track, and all the rest were in graphics. Zero picked coding. Not one!
When I asked, I got the exact same answer each time: “I don’t want to do that”.
Well, I didn’t want to do management. I wanted to do graphics. Desperately in fact. The difference? They didn’t have the income pressure I did. I HAD TO CHASE THE CASH. They just did what they liked.
I imagine several of them are now complaining they don’t make as much as some fellow graduates because of an “ism”. Riiiight.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahm6ch wrote

Accused of what?

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Any-Bottle-4910 t1_jai1zcr wrote

Men actively seeking to hold women back or down by underpaying them.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jajegr5 wrote

Where did someone say that?

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Any-Bottle-4910 t1_jam1idi wrote

Have you read anything anywhere ever? Start with this post’s comments.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jam1rf1 wrote

The only people making that claim are guys like you, who are claiming it doesn’t exist because you’ve failed to understand what it means or what is being represented by data such as that in the OP.

The fact that many of you bought a ridiculous line from some Peterson-like clown doesn’t make it any less ridiculous, unfortunately.

Gender pay gaps are a real thing - and they’re not the product of any nefarious conspiracy .

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Any-Bottle-4910 t1_jam2rs6 wrote

Yeah, the Patriarchy made me say that. My bad.
I thought I was disagreeing with you on the merits. Now I see that the problem is that I just don’t understand. If I did, I could ignore the math and feel better about my new found moral superiority.
I thought the constant drumbeat about men and the patriarchy was leveled at men and the patriarchy, but I was wrong. It’s “the system”, and we can’t blame that on men nor the patriarchy, except when we do, until someone calls that out, and then we don’t. Got it.

So then who’s fault is it?

Apparently it just cannot be women knowingly choosing lower paid careers, working less hours, taking more time off, refusing to move for better work, not taking as many risks, not starting as many businesses, not asking for raises, nor dropping out of the workforce entirely because “the kids are growing up so fast, Brad, and I don’t want to miss it.”

So who’s to blame?

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahcq79 wrote

Because it's bs. It's not allowed by law to pay less for a certain gender for the same work where I live and still the gap is huge.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahcuzi wrote

Gender pay gap doesn’t necessarily mean for the same work. It can include that sometimes but that’s not what it means

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahit9c wrote

Yeah that's why it's bs the way it is usually presented and shown. If you want to make a point then, it is about choice and not about the pay.

Women and men chose different jobs, maybe we are not the same? Maybe women with high paying jobs are not as happy as stay home moms? Maybe not, but where is this data?

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahjqs1 wrote

That’s the gender pay gap you just described.

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahkay2 wrote

So what point are you making? What is the problem, is there a problem and whose fault is it?

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahl4ai wrote

> Whose fault is it

It’s no one’s fault. It’s a phenomenon in society that we now find ourselves with many thousands of years into our journey through civilisation. To observe it and discuss it, and wonder about whether and how it provides us with an optimal situation individually, for the community, or for the economy, is not really something you need to see as a source of conflict or a personal attack.

You clearly can see that the gender pay gap is there. You just described it. You can discuss what it is, means or doesn’t mean without immaturely just declaring it doesn’t exist or that it’s some affront.

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahpsre wrote

True, but what I mostly see nowadays in society is to search for victims and perpetrators to correspond to a certain narrative, feminsim.

That's equality of outcome and the way it is done today, it is sexist again.

We should focus on equality of opportunity and the point I am making is that in western societies we have it mostly.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahqlvj wrote

Be that as it may, the gender pay gap exists and presents far more interesting questions than any discussions about some hypothetical individual’s victim narrative

And I think you’re right to call out victim narratives, but I think everyone should be a bit careful of slipping into one. I think some people fall into this trap by inferring accusations that aren’t there in this discussion

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Riegler77 t1_jahuj5f wrote

Where I live murder is illegal, guess what?

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahw24i wrote

So we should be an anarchist society? What point are you trying to make?

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Riegler77 t1_jahwqp5 wrote

My point is that just because there is a law that prohibits pay discrimination does not mean that there is no pay discrimination.

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahxc56 wrote

Then introduce a law where you can inform yourself about your collagues wage& sue the company. - Oh wait, we already have that?

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gnarlycarly18 t1_jahgcx3 wrote

Breaking news: employers often break the fucking law.

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Paxisstinkt t1_jahjxy0 wrote

Breaking news: You can sue companies that break the law.

You can also inform yourself by law about the wage of your colleagues where I live.

So, what point are you trying to make?

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thedragonturtle t1_jahbnm7 wrote

If the chart were redrawn for women with children vs women without children the pay gap would look the same

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahbubt wrote

Correct. Having children and caring for them is another part of why there is a pay gap.

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thedragonturtle t1_jahc78q wrote

To fix this, we need to make it normal for men to take time off work for a couple of years to look after their kids.

It shouldnt be called a pay gap because that makes it sound like women are paid less for the same work.

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Ian_ronald_maiden t1_jahckq0 wrote

No one said anything about the same work. If you’ve understood it that way then I think it is fair to say that you haven’t actually understood the concept, isn’t it?

The question is usually about why female dominated industries, despite being absolutely critical to society, tend to have less monetary value attached to them. Examples of such skilled work are frontline medicine and education; critical yet undervalued compared to say, plumbers and bricklayers, which are male dominated skilled professions that attract very good wages

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