Leaving geographies with sparse data (lower representation across sectors). Made from International labour organization data using Datawrapper.

[deleted]

Gender pay gap is a myth in the USA. A woman with the same credentials as a man typically gets paid more to do the same job. They claim there's a pay gap because construction workers and hard laborers have higher pay on average and it's dominated by men because most women don't want to /can't do the work.

I can’t make sense of the order of countries

It's not a pay gap. It's an earnings gap. If women were actually being underpaid then all men would be out of jobs because it would be cheaper to employ women.

The "pay" gap has never passed the sniff test

Congratulations. You just described exactly what everyone means when they say “gender pay gap”.

What you just said, that’s what the gender pay gap is. So…. Not really a myth, eh?

You just don’t understand the concept, it seems

“Underpaid” is not what anyone is talking about. They’re discussing the social phenomenon that sees jobs dominated by women earning less than men occurring right across the planet, and the various social implications of it.

It’s weird that you guys feel victimised by this discussion

Why would it be a shot at the USA if similar PPP income countries in Western Europe show the same or wider pay gap?

ITT: Guys claiming the gender pay gap doesn’t exist and then describing exactly what the gender pay gap is and how it exists in the exact form they’re denying

Yeah, there seem to be a few wider than the US

[deleted]

If the chart were redrawn for women with children vs women without children the pay gap would look the same

Correct. Having children and caring for them is another part of why there is a pay gap.

From the data there is a correlation between country's wealth and gender pay gap.

Seems to have a build in bias. The lower the pay, the lesser the gap. What if the pay is adjusted to some sort of average-standard deviation type representation?

To fix this, we need to make it normal for men to take time off work for a couple of years to look after their kids.

It shouldnt be called a pay gap because that makes it sound like women are paid less for the same work.

The presentation is highly misleading. For Ethiopia, it's a factor of more than 2, but it looks like no difference at all.

No one said anything about the same work. If you’ve understood it that way then I think it is fair to say that you haven’t actually understood the concept, isn’t it?

The question is usually about why female dominated industries, despite being absolutely critical to society, tend to have less monetary value attached to them. Examples of such skilled work are frontline medicine and education; critical yet undervalued compared to say, plumbers and bricklayers, which are male dominated skilled professions that attract very good wages

Because it's bs. It's not allowed by law to pay less for a certain gender for the same work where I live and still the gap is huge.

Gender pay gap doesn’t necessarily mean for the same work. It can include that sometimes but that’s not what it means

That’s like a completely false simplification. Employment has a large number of factors that affect the supply and demand. Proximity to the work location affects available workers. Skill/experience affects available workers. Need for income affects tolerances in pay gap. Lack of choices affects tolerances in pay gap. Just to name a few.

Then we need more women in construction jobs. And women should get less children.

Maybe they don't want that and the statistics show that. So how about making a statistic about certain jobs? Men die earlier, also not shown in the graph

Perhaps we need to value nurses and teachers, and many other female dominated professions, more highly.

I worry moving all the teachers and nurses into trades will have some knock on effects that might not be so great for the economy in the long run.

True, that was not the best argument. But calling this a pay gap is intentionally missleading, since it takes averages over all professions for both genders and then implies that the difference means women get paid less for the same work. The truth is though, that almost all pay gap is due to different carreer prefferences between the genders - to use the most cliche example the technological faculties have majority of men while social faculties have majority of women. Once you count in the prefferences, the pay gap shrinks almost to zero.

Then what's the problem with the gender pay gap? What the person described is perfectly normal and fair

Edit: except the part where women get paid more than men for the same work but that's not "what everyone means" as you've said

Yeah, it should be shown as a percentage of the pay instead

When data presentation = dogshit

The undervaluing of professions dominated by women that are critical to society has knock on effects.

However the ordering is by % gap basis. I did want to suggest that Ethiopia has a big problem, when the earnings irrespective of male or female is extremely low compared to World average.

It's the ILO data. They don't cover all geographies. For the ones they cover, some of them don't have enough data vintage. So excluded them.

It's not the case, the graph is ordered by %gap. Ethiopia has the highest %gap.

This doesnt make sence. Why are there only two genders? Also gender is a made up term why put this into an arbitrary category.

Yes obv. Doesn't change the fact that women chose these jobs by themselves. It's peak femininism, everyone can study what he or she wants.

Edit: If you edit your post substantially please show it.

-So you want to tell women what they should work?

Interesting. The graph is ordered by the highest %gap. Ethiopia has the highest % gap. But it would be unfair to highlight that considering their pay is well below the world average.

I don’t see how that relates to this.

I don't think it makes sense to compare absolute pay gaps. At least, present it together with a percentual value and sort the countries by the relative gap.

[removed]

This data presentation is utter bs. Like what point are you trying to make?

> The truth is though, that almost all pay gap is due to different carreer prefferences between the genders

Why are critical industries dominated by women paid less on average in the majority of circumstances though?

Very insightful. Considering what you said, would the next step in the analysis be to normalize all salaries by dividing by the profession average?

Useless unless you compare the same jobs.

the developed countries seem mostly to have the largest pay gaps

Well its sad but it is econnomically impossible (unless you are rooting for communism) to pay a person who helps generate huge profits such as IT specialist or financial analyst the same wage as to someone who is a social services worker. I am not saying that its not an honourable and important profession, but generates much smaller financial value.

Breaking news: employers often break the fucking law.

It’s interesting that you chose social worker as an example. The gender pay gap has always been observed in bureaucratic jobs that are among the many, many critical functions in society that aren’t measured on income generating ability.

> Well its sad but it is econnomically impossible (unless you are rooting for communism) to pay a person who helps generate huge profits such as IT specialist or financial analyst the same wage as to someone who is a social services worker.

And don’t you think it’s remarkable that all over the world it’s the female dominated gigs that we just can’t seem to justify paying more for. Can’t possibly pay the nurses more even in the midst of a labour shortage … but the IT guy needs a competitive package without question. Isn’t it weird that that situation always seems to replicate along gender lines all over the world?

Forget the justice off it or any ideas about changing it, don’t you just find that phenomenon interesting? One hell of a coincidence, right?

Sort countries and give us relative gaps

[removed]

Yeah that sounds like a way to do it. I would just take the pay difference in each profession separately and then made an average of that.

No I dont really find that remarkable. On average, men are more interrested in things and women in people. Thats why the prefference difference is mostly the same acrost the world and why the female preffered professions pay less - you sell things easier than you sell empathy.

As to the IT guys vs Nurses example - there is no person deciding these things. No evil patriarch setting the wages. I would guess that there is greater demand for IT professionals (as they generate more profit) than for nurses on the market or that there are less people capable of becoming IT professionals than those capable of becomming nurses in the population. It has nothing to do with gender.

Yeah that's why it's bs the way it is usually presented and shown. If you want to make a point then, it is about choice and not about the pay.

Women and men chose different jobs, maybe we are not the same? Maybe women with high paying jobs are not as happy as stay home moms? Maybe not, but where is this data?

I can’t help but feel like you still have a pretty basic misunderstanding of what the words “gender pay gap” describe.

An evil overlord is not really part of it.

Everyone is talking about genderpaygap. But noone talks about the country paygap.

That’s the gender pay gap you just described.

Breaking news: You can sue companies that break the law.

You can also inform yourself by law about the wage of your colleagues where I live.

So, what point are you trying to make?

So what point are you making? What is the problem, is there a problem and whose fault is it?

That's true, but I'm talking in terms of absolute values.

Also, most rich countries in the dataset are in the upper half of the figure, thus there is some correlation even in percentage terms.

[removed]

> Whose fault is it

It’s no one’s fault. It’s a phenomenon in society that we now find ourselves with many thousands of years into our journey through civilisation. To observe it and discuss it, and wonder about whether and how it provides us with an optimal situation individually, for the community, or for the economy, is not really something you need to see as a source of conflict or a personal attack.

You clearly can see that the gender pay gap is there. You just described it. You can discuss what it is, means or doesn’t mean without immaturely just declaring it doesn’t exist or that it’s some affront.

Not victimized, just falsely accused. Women are just as smart on average as men. Zero difference, though the distribution curve is different. The data is clear.
Women go to college knowing their career choice doesn’t make as much, and do it anyway.

Here’s an anecdote-
I got my latest degree in gaming and simulation. It pays well. The male female ratio was at least 10:1. The degree had 3 tracks: coding, management, and graphics. The expected pay for each is in the same order, and made well known throughout the program. I met only 2 girls in the management track, and all the rest were in graphics. Zero picked coding. Not one!
When I asked, I got the exact same answer each time: “I don’t want to do that”.
Well, I didn’t want to do management. I wanted to do graphics. Desperately in fact. The difference? They didn’t have the income pressure I did. I HAD TO CHASE THE CASH. They just did what they liked.
I imagine several of them are now complaining they don’t make as much as some fellow graduates because of an “ism”. Riiiight.

Accused of what?

Stupid take.

Oh I think we agree on the fact that women preffered professions are paid less, even though not intentionally and that can be a meaning of these words.

But what most people take of the “pay gap” is that women are somehow paid less regardless of the profession and that is wrong and has severe consequences in the society.

If you don't like communism then there is a market price for your work. The market pays for work that was clasically done by men more.

Indeed. And, believe it or not, there are quite a few people who are not entirely convinced that that is the optimal situation for society or the economy, especially given the extremely high non-monetary value of these jobs.

> Oh I think we agree on the fact that women preffered professions are paid less, even though not intentionally and that can be a meaning of these words.

That is literally the meaning of those words. Anything else is just a failure to understand what the term was even referring to.

True, but what I mostly see nowadays in society is to search for victims and perpetrators to correspond to a certain narrative, feminsim.

That's equality of outcome and the way it is done today, it is sexist again.

We should focus on equality of opportunity and the point I am making is that in western societies we have it mostly.

Be that as it may, the gender pay gap exists and presents far more interesting questions than any discussions about some hypothetical individual’s victim narrative

And I think you’re right to call out victim narratives, but I think everyone should be a bit careful of slipping into one. I think some people fall into this trap by inferring accusations that aren’t there in this discussion

True but we live in a (capitalistic) society that tries to fit everything in it. And how do you solve it?

Where I live murder is illegal, guess what?

An employee's pay is their earning.

Employees are hired by humans, humans do not make rational decisions. If a pay gap is caused by a system undervaluation of women's abilities this would cause employers to offer women less.

So we should be an anarchist society? What point are you trying to make?

One's profession is not just affected by one's preference. If women are less likely to be promoted to higher-paying positions regardless of their abilities this will cause an unfair pay gap that will not show up once you normalize by position.

Anyway, even after accounting for position there is still a pay gap.

[removed]

My point is that just because there is a law that prohibits pay discrimination does not mean that there is no pay discrimination.

Ratio between the two, descending order

Then introduce a law where you can inform yourself about your collagues wage& sue the company. - Oh wait, we already have that?

Men actively seeking to hold women back or down by underpaying them.

It would be interesting to see the same data expressed in %

I believe in gender pay gap when you show me an example of two individuals of opposite sex having the exact same experience, education, workload and role with different pay.

If that's the case, the gap would show up when normalizing for industry or sector. Actually, there might come nice insights from those normalizations.

It is very nice to visualize this data using dumbell chart but this chart is not giving insight into exact story. For example, in Turkey, my country 1 dollar is approx.20 dolars. So,it is not eficient way to describe gap with dollar. There is more envy amount of gap in reality

Is this a total average of salaries or comparisons at the same exact position? I think it’s most likely the former and very misleading.

I think the problem in your understanding is assuming any salary should be measured or "justified" by anything other than the income generated by the employee.

In capitalism, prices come from the market process: supply and demand, that's it.

I would be interested in seeing this data presented as a percentage difference instead of absolute difference. Why don't you redo it?

Where did someone say that?

I don’t know.

But it exists

You think all jobs generate income?

Nurses? Teachers? Police? Firefighters?

[deleted]

Come on dude, not everything is an anti-US conspiracy.

I didn’t read your comment but starting with “That’s like a” doesn’t really help whatever point you’re trying to make

Sir this is Reddit!!! Don’t come in here with that heresy!

Showing %difference is a better comparison rather than usual absolute figures in this case.

No! We post graphs and use no critical thinking, then suggest graph should look different again with no critical thinking.

Can’t explain economics to psychology majors…..

You have it ingrained in your head that businesses are so greedy but they only want to pay men….both can’t be true

The term is literally used over and over for “women get paid less for doing the same thing a man does”…..it’s wrong and only gullible people fall for it

Exactly, there isn’t one!

Way to let reality fly right over your head…..no one is denying that women as a whole, on average, make less than men, on average. But if you look into it, using critical thinking and variables….you see there is no pay gap for the same jobs, or even it’s educated/ unmarried women with no kids making the most. But then again, that would take critical thinking….

[removed]

[removed]

You seem to be like a lot of others here who are confused by what gender pay gap means.

You just described what it is.

That’s incorrect

You don’t seem to understand what the term gender pay gap describes

Nope not confused at all….typically when people reference the “pay gap” they are insinuating that women get paid less than men for the exact same job (which would lead to companies hiring only women). They are also insinuating that it stems from sexism and/or bigotry towards women….that is also false.

Literally no one ever has denied the pay gap of lump averages by gender….the question is why

Woah you got me there….

Haha you again saying that no one understands “gender pay gap”….glad you have your own understanding of words unique to yourself

In the Netherlands, one of the reasons the gap is so high because many women chose to work part-time after they start a family. Due to the strong family orientation of the culture, that option is available.

That has two implications:

• They work less days (my wife works 2 days, for example).
• They are usually ineligible for more senior people manager roles due to only logging on for part of the week.

Aha, that's good to know, otherwise, just visually it gives the impression that the wealthier the country the larger the gap is. Whereas the ordering shows there is no such correlation.

It is the case that women are getting more degrees than men at present, but as shown by Pew the pay gap continues relatively steadily.

Most people understand it. You and the others who think it’s an attack on men clearly don’t

That’s not what it means or what people who say it are talking about.

It might be what you’ve wrongly thought they mean, but that’s all on you and Dr Peterson

Yeah it's difficult to notice that

This doesn’t include by job type or tenure, two very important factors to leave out if you want to make a political point and not a factual point

Yes, I do. All those services are useful and are paid for, they add value to people in society.

Just because you relate those jobs with public services (that you don't pay directly), it doesn't mean they couldn't be priced properly by the market.

So you seem to acknowledge that a gender pay gap exists, you just don’t think it’s something that needs addressing then, even when you’re talking about jobs specifically paid for with tax dollars

Have you read anything anywhere ever? Start with this post’s comments.

The only people making that claim are guys like you, who are claiming it doesn’t exist because you’ve failed to understand what it means or what is being represented by data such as that in the OP.

The fact that many of you bought a ridiculous line from some Peterson-like clown doesn’t make it any less ridiculous, unfortunately.

Gender pay gaps are a real thing - and they’re not the product of any nefarious conspiracy .

Yeah, the Patriarchy made me say that. My bad.
I thought I was disagreeing with you on the merits. Now I see that the problem is that I just don’t understand. If I did, I could ignore the math and feel better about my new found moral superiority.
I thought the constant drumbeat about men and the patriarchy was leveled at men and the patriarchy, but I was wrong. It’s “the system”, and we can’t blame that on men nor the patriarchy, except when we do, until someone calls that out, and then we don’t. Got it.

So then who’s fault is it?

Apparently it just cannot be women knowingly choosing lower paid careers, working less hours, taking more time off, refusing to move for better work, not taking as many risks, not starting as many businesses, not asking for raises, nor dropping out of the workforce entirely because “the kids are growing up so fast, Brad, and I don’t want to miss it.”

So who’s to blame?

No one’s to blame. It’s an artefact of a few thousand years of civilisation.

I honestly can’t tell if you’re trolling, ignorant…., an idiot…..or all the above.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/05/19/women-are-still-paid-83-cents-for-every-dollar-men-earn-heres-why.html

https://time.com/4290427/hillary-clinton-equal-pay-day/?amp=true

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2014/04/08/obama-on-gender-pay-gap-its-not-a-myth-its-math.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-REB-35112

You didn’t even read the first few pars of the first link, did you?

[removed]

[removed]

On the contrary - its precisely because these jobs dont generate direct income that the have to be paid from your taxes and therefore are paid less than positions in the free market where you can increase salaries of the most valuable positions to attract better employees and generate more profit.

But, as the others have probably realised by now, you will just rewert to your ultimate “you dont understand the term” or “your opinion is just incorrect” argument again. Alas this is my last comment in this pointless crusade - try to be thankful that the system works even though you dont fully understand it is my final advice (othervise the people working these unfarly underpaid social services but we doing manual labour by now).

Which one I sent multiple showing that people are saying women get paid less for doing the same as a man…..what are you missing here?

Okay, I’ll make sure to just take the word of some dude on the internet next time.

I'm not well acquainted with the data and I don't think the data presented in this graph is useful at all to understand the issue (as I discussed in other comments). So I can't say I acknowledge that it exists.

I would say this is something that needs to be addressed if it was clear that women make less than men when performing exactly the same job, out of sheer discrimination.

By looking at this data alone, there could be so many different phenomena skewing the average. It could be that women prefer professions that make less money. It could be that women have a greater chance of stopping their careers to take care of their families. If that's the case, then the gap in the average is not an issue, IMO.

What a complete load of high school rubbish

None of them say that.

They all contain the same explanation I’ve given you multiple times and none support you at all.

And again - thats not an argument. You are not capable of defending your believes so you resort to insults.

It’s been explained to you.

What you just said is made up nonsense

“The wage gap persists when comparing women to men across similar education level, occupation, income and race.”

“Hillary Clinton called for stricter transparency laws to ensure women and men are paid equally for the same jobs”

“Democrats cite data that has found that the real median earnings of men and women who work full-time and year-round for the same amount of time”

I know reading is hard so I took quotes from these sources that explicitly say it, or imply it.

Do better.

There are indeed many different phenomena that skew the average male. Women choosing professions that make less money is among them.

The question is, of course, why is it that professions chosen by women almost always seem to be valued less monetarily, even when they’re among the most important and in demand jobs in society.

Taking care of families is another part of it.

And, while it’s not an issue for you, it is an issue for women and the government who have to plan and account for the personal and community impacts of an enormous section of society being less prepared for an independent and healthy retirement

> “The wage gap persists when comparing women to men across similar education level, occupation, income and race.”

Jesus Christ, dude.

You’re out of your depth in the shallow end

I don’t think you even know what you’re trying to argue

Holy shit, the irony might be too much now

Lol you claimed no one says “women are paid less for working the same job as men” I said people and leaders say it all the time….then I cited examples of people and politicians saying it…..you’ve provided nothing but a bunch jargon and clearly showing your lack of understanding

Your quote literally describes the pay gap exactly as I did.

Have you read any of this or are you just in full rage mode?

> > “The wage gap persists when comparing women to men across similar education level, occupation, income and race.”

Your quote from you link, mate. Clear as day. Says the same in all your other links too - the same thing I told you too

Just admit you didn’t know what gender pay gap means - not does Peterson or Tate or any of your other pet charlatans

My quote literally says it like I did so you obviously agree with my original post….good to know…..sorry you can’t properly explain your perspective

> “The wage gap persists when comparing women to men across similar education level, occupation, income and race.”

Did you actually read this?

Yes, so now you agree they say this? Then I’ll cite the countless economic papers that disprove that statement…..to remind you, your point was that no one says that women and men are paid differently for the same job…..now I’ve shown you people do say that (even though that is wrong)

Just admit that neither you or Jordan Peterson has the first idea what you’re talking about here and learn from your mistake.

You haven’t found a single thing that supports your position because you have completely failed to understand what gender pay gap means.

That’s fine. You can always learn. But now that you’ve been told and read at least four articles that have also explained it to you, your continued ignorance is clearly wilful.

This isn’t a matter of opinion. You are stone cold wrong and every single thing you’ve posted shows it.

Eh you can’t try to explain basic economics to stupid people….I tried…..there is no sexist pay gap where women make less because they are women…..but keep listening psychology majors tell you about the economy.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/27/young-women-earning-more-men

https://www.npr.org/2022/04/02/1090466033/gender-pay-gap-women-earn

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220415-why-young-women-earn-more-than-men-in-some-us-cities

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2023/03/01/gender-pay-gap-facts/

Sheep will be sheep though as they say

> And although the gap may have been narrowed in many U.S. cities, nationally there is still a ways to go.

> The Institute for Women's Policy Research says that women who work full-time jobs in the U.S. are paid 83 cents on the dollar when compared with men.

And once again, your own sources immediately disagree with you

There you Again quoting the stat that doesn’t take into account the same job…..only someone with a specific biased would knowingly exclude stats that go against their narrative…..just admit the pay gap is a fraud and not real

That’s because when people discuss gender pay gap they’re not talking about the same job.

The fact you’re too ideologicallly biased to understand it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

When people talk about the pay gap…..they imply it’s because of sexism….it’s not.

I love how you’ve literally changed your original point though….

My point remains that you have no idea what gender pay gap means so the rest of your ranting is irrelevant

I’ve just explained what gender gap is….a myth. No amount of sources or explaining will get that through your head

I get it. You’re too dumb to understand what everyone else is talking about so you made up your own definition and decided it’s fake.

Very clever.

[removed]

What do you mean you say a profession is valued less? Do you want to suggest that it's done deliberately by someone or something?

The value of each profession is always a reflection of the market, that is, supply and demand. The employee always wants to be paid more and the employer always wants to pay as little as possible (regardless of the employee's gender).

If women were universally valued less as employees, that would just create a massive opportunity for companies hiring only women to have margins greater than their competitors. In a short time, many other companies would seize the same opportunity, increasing the demand for women's labor and thus normalizing the wages across gender.

My speculative take on this is that the biological differences between genders reflect on their average personality traits, making them choose jobs differently.

For being more competitive, men tend to pursue high-income careers and positions. Also, men have a predilection for things instead of people, which is a driver for choosing STEM careers. On the other hand, women gravitate more toward the humanities and don't focus so much on increasing their income. Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but on average, this seems to be the case.

You have provided no supporting links or evidence for any of the claims you have made. So I am going to continue to trust Pew over some random guy on the internet’s opinions.