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ughcantsleep t1_itw4pdm wrote

If you only used the title you're skewing heavily towards junior and entry level positions. Most developers - particularly app or web developers - regularly work with more than one language. Data Scientists primarily develop in python or R but they aren't called "R developer".

Also Oct 2021 was the peak of tech optimism and hiring. The nasdaq index - a proxy for tech - is down 30%. Your top language - Solidity - is for crypto smart contracts; crypto companies are not hiring anymore and in fact have been laying off like crazy.

It was a nice effort but there's a ton of sampling bias that makes this chart misleading.

Edit: If you want to know what these languages are for and have a spare 16 mins here's a fun snappy youtube video.

If you have no formal cs training and you just want to start making stuff - 100% learn with python.

Also the fact that a crypto thing misleadingly made it to the top of a thing is just :chefskiss: lmfao


sdfsefhsui t1_itwdojx wrote

> If you only used the title you're skewing heavily towards junior and entry level positions.

Junior positions making more than most senior software engineers in Europe/UK.



corn-potage t1_iu0xf16 wrote

You don't need to be hired by a company to make money using Solidity for smart contracts - you can just build something yourself (or with some random person you met on Discord or Twitter with a food pfp) and make money. Many of those people are doing it without being tied to real life identity. That's like.. part of the big appeal of blockchains - disintermediating middlemen, companies, etc. I don't know that many companies hiring Solidity devs, although there are major companies like Microsoft or EY and such, dabbling in smart contracts and contributing to Ethereum ecosystem like with zk-proof stuff


685327594 t1_itv9s66 wrote

This looks a whole lot more like noise than signal. Especially with these esoteric languages that probably have very few data points. Not like you just learn one language either. A lot are very similar to each with with just minor syntax changes or features.


gizzardgullet t1_itw3k2x wrote

> Not like you just learn one language either.

I work with multiple languages on the list on a daily basis. Coincidentally, they are back to back on the list though.


Poincare_Confection t1_itwvkgo wrote

I'm going to start calling people like you "picky eaters". Someone gives you a bowl of ice cream for free and your comment back is "but it doesn't have a cherry on top".

A data set can be useful even if it isn't a comprehensive representative of a situation covering every possible facet. I too often see comments like yours on this subreddit that suggest this data is lacking some key factor and therefore is flawed. You're right that there exists another factor that would help us better understand the situation, but that doesn't mean this data visualization is bad or suboptimal. You have all sorts of limitations when doing data visualizations, like limitations of your data, limitations of time (e.g. making simple 2D visualizations is MUCH faster than doing more sophisticated stuff in d3js), limitations of the READER'S ability to comprehend the visualization, and limitations of the reader's patience.

And you're going to come back and be like "oh, well, I didn't mean it that way. I just think it could be improved" blah blah blah. Nah. Bullshit. This subreddit is overrun by negative nancies coming in just smacking their lips ready to shit on every upvoted thread in this subreddit, when in reality they're perfectly respectable and useful data visualizations. Just a bunch of haters who are so negative and don't give props to the OP, and there's so many of you that comments like yours get upvoted to the top of threads. Fuck that. Ruins the sub imo.


685327594 t1_itww66l wrote

I'm not nitpicking, I'm saying you shouldn't assert or imply a causal relationship exists when the data isn't sufficient to support that relationship in a statistically significant way.


lucun t1_ity08i6 wrote

From the graph's OP:

>Also for the language categorization, only the TITLE of the job offer has been analyzed. This means that for example, a title of "Backend developer" would be discarded, since it does not contain any language or stack valid on it. Analyzing only the title also filters out offers that require many languages and are fuzzy.

I get the negative pickiness about this sub, but he's really not being picky. The data is bad, suboptimal, and misleading. Most companies do not list job postings with very specific "language x developer" and sometimes put languages in the job details, so OP's very limited sampling method is a flaw. The last thing we want is a bunch of new CS students hyper focused on learning Solidify for the big money, but only to learn that most companies don't even know about that language or even allow answering technical interview questions with Solidfy.


BourgeoisCheese t1_ityg9i9 wrote

Dude, this chart is utter horseshit wtf are you writing a novel about?


scholar_requesting t1_itwgjat wrote

R being on the bottom with a large interquartile range is dark but not surprising. Among the more well-to-do data scientists, statisticians, business analysts, and professors, there's a whole lot of low-income graduate students, research assistants, research associates, and postdoctoral scholars trying to keep their heads above water. Edit: ...and who might not be able to access, afford, or be willing to pirate SPSS/SAS/Stata/Prism/MATLAB.


shindleria t1_itxppy8 wrote

I always try to imagine a world where this chart is flipped, especially in the context of what’s going on right now in 2022.


AlbanianAquaDuck t1_ityeeld wrote

So true. If our best scientists and engineers were paid the big bucks by government to research climate change and renewable energy solutions instead of getting scooped up by big tech and corporations, we would probably be on our way to meet our net zero emissions targets, but he we are.


minusTHEoso25 t1_ity4ln4 wrote

That’s my guess. Most of our students, graduate students, and post docs are using R, and they are probably making zilch.


a_cat_question t1_ityepkf wrote

Also you would not develop full software suites in R but rather do data evaluation. Anybody earning the big bucks will consider themselves a statistician or scientist but not an R genius.


Much-Street-8757 t1_itvxli0 wrote

How the hell is Typescript below Javascript?


Juan-More-Taco t1_itw9nfu wrote

Because it's poorly prepared/sourced data. This is mostly all noise.


mata_dan t1_itzis4c wrote

Kotlin below Java is kind of funny too. But that's probably various landed senior positions in archaic companies where everything was all Java for a long time.


Opus-the-Penguin t1_itva0ey wrote

It's really interesting that COBOL seems to be a solid median choice. It means I could've picked it up in 1980 when we got our first TRS-80 computer and been set for life. But back then we all thought COBOL was stodgy and on its way out. Turns out it would've kept me in the gravy through Y2K and up to the present.


685327594 t1_itval9k wrote

The big takeaway I see here is all my classes programming in assembly were pretty worthless. Are higher level languages used everywhere now?


Opus-the-Penguin t1_itvbpb8 wrote

Good question. I mean SOMEBODY has to be doing the ultra low level stuff in order for the high level to work, right? But yeah, back in the day, the machine language guys were the real he-man coders and the COBOL guys were just BASIC programmers with a car payment.


685327594 t1_itvcr71 wrote

Nobody really has to program in assembly unless they are making a new compiler.


Pert02 t1_itw5oad wrote

Or when you need high performance on embedded applications. Lets say you need to do signal processing on an embedded system with a DSP. Thats all assembly.


devoxel t1_itwqpr1 wrote

Understanding assembly does make a better programmer IMO. It gives you intuition about memory access & stack. You can get there without assembly but its much easier when you've dug through the mud yourself, at least in my experience.

Plus languages like Rust are surprisingly low level, even though it's advanced in terms of syntax and symbolic representation


lucun t1_itxyroh wrote

Depends on where you work at in the stack, but normally yes higher level languages are everywhere and assembly is very uncommon. I've only had to code in assembly once in my career, and it was for a very specific piece of equipment to do an overly specialized 200% performance optimization that the C++ compiler wasn't intelligent enough to do for an overly specialized use case for that CPU.


sittingmongoose t1_itye8v9 wrote

If you’re a cobol engineer making below $150k you’re doing it very wrong. My previous employer has been looking for a cobol engineer for 2 years, they pay lost people under 100k, this role is up over 200k now.


mata_dan t1_itzj55f wrote

At that point they've probably missed countless good engineers who could easily learn it in/for the role.


lordnacho666 t1_itwecba wrote

So now C and C++ are the same thing?


Khaylain t1_itxcyxg wrote

I don't think they are, but the C++ developers need something to aspire to.


rice_not_wheat t1_iu0bkf9 wrote

> I don't think they are, but the C++ developers need something to aspire to.

I can't stop laughing at this joke. Holy shit.


pk10534 t1_itw52l8 wrote

How do you quantify this though? My work alternates between Typescript, C# and JavaScript on a regular basis depending on the project I am working on. How would you classify my salary for this chart?


phyrros t1_itvw1jb wrote

pretty curious chart. Eg the differences between Fortran and Cobol: Fortran is certainly more common in a daily usage (in the scientific community) but pays significantly less than Cobol which to my knowledge is only used in mainframes...


The depressing part is that my programming skills would put me at twice the income in the USA ^^


covidkebab t1_itw957x wrote

Could it be banks are hiring Cobol, while universities or research institutes are hiring Fortran?


phyrros t1_itwb9ye wrote

that would be my guess. A whole lot of phds/post-docs need fortran and those are usually badly paid.


ed: I would love to see more datapoints for Julia as it fits right into the same area.

Fortran Julia Python R Matlab and a whole massive group of postdocs which work in areas which touch about all of these languages


minusTHEoso25 t1_ity57ai wrote

That’s probably it. I’m research faculty using Fortran and I make ~65k. Seems bad until you hear what our postdocs make…


bbqandhockeytoo t1_itx6956 wrote

Government financial services (public debt, unemployment, etc) are also still run on COBOL, especially if they are state rather than federal agencies. Some of these "ancient" coding languages are still integral to how our society functions... it's half impressive and 2/3rds terrifying.


muglug t1_itw78yy wrote

The top-salaried programming language is probably Hack, which is used at two companies (Facebook and Slack) that pay their engineers well, and not really used by anyone else.

That does not mean you should learn Hack! Instead means you should try and gain the skills/qualifications which would make you impressive to those companies.

Same with Rust, which is often used at companies that don't screen for Rust experience (but would be interested in developers with systems-programming experience).


kitty420dec t1_itz0zka wrote

Me on google rn: “Solidity courses for beginners”


sdfsefhsui t1_itwdhlm wrote

I think those values are from USA as $85 is massive in the UK.


hatsuseno t1_itwxyx0 wrote

Most certainly, salaries are notoriously lower on this side of the pond.


sdfsefhsui t1_itx5xx8 wrote

Funny enough they're same roughly as in Canada, but any skilled job on average would get double in USA (with notable exceptions like medicine or living in the Silicon Valley).


nicholasf21677 t1_itzdkxk wrote

These are entry-level developer salaries in the US. No senior developer is going to have a specific programming language in their job title.


wilcroft t1_itxbh96 wrote

Weird that you included VHDL but not (System)Verilog, given that I believe the latter is more popular


KalWilton t1_itz1p15 wrote

I thought this as well, also they are hardware description languages. Thinking of them as programming languages in my opinion is not correct.


wilcroft t1_itzi510 wrote

Eh. I’d mostly agree, though because you can use the output of an HDL to “program” an FPGA or CPLD, I’m not as much of a stickler on that particular semantic.


[deleted] t1_itv9kov wrote



114145 t1_itvf7z7 wrote

Nice viz! Like the style as well. One upgrade I'd love to see is samplesize per language. That'd really complete the picture.


BlakBat t1_itwc7eb wrote

With no location, this is also meaningless.


KezAzzamean t1_ity2sru wrote

I’m PHP and JavaScript right now at 120k in Kentucky… guess it’s low because all the junior positions that touch it.


mrabstract29 t1_iu265i8 wrote

Scala is just high enough on the list to keep engineers from blowing their brains out afterwards. I'll shovel horse s**t for a living before I go back to working in a Scala shop.


iamthemosin t1_itw3cy2 wrote

Any information on what industries these languages are used for? And how many data points for each language? I would imagine there are a lot more Python users than Clojure users, since I’ve never heard of Clojure as a non-coder.


Milnoc t1_itx76vc wrote

COBOL is a business accounting oriented language. It was used heavily for business applications running on mainframes such as reports, inventory control, and billing operations.

I wonder if it's still commonly used today.


Funicularly t1_itxh2d5 wrote

Why are you commenting on COBOL when the post you are responding to is wondering about Clojure.


WatDaFuxRong t1_itw9178 wrote

Any solidify people know what the difference is in it?


ArkGuardian t1_itxu4oj wrote

It's a crypto specific language. Anyone who works in it professionally is in a handful of VC infused smart contract developer positions. It is not a good language to learn on its own


OurNumber4 t1_iu0yhfa wrote

Or maybe a company like Reddit…


ArkGuardian t1_iu341la wrote

Reddit is a VC backed crypto company. Several of it's key community features are built on blockchain. It doesn't change the point. Solidity is not a good language to learn by itself. If you have other software engineering skills you can add to your skillset to do smart contracts.


OurNumber4 t1_iu3jlib wrote

Reddit isn’t a crypto company. It’s one of the top 20 most visited websites in the world that has dipped its toe in crypto waters.


ArkGuardian t1_iu3l6l3 wrote

Reddit's engineering staff is massive now, but they do have quite a few crypto/crypto security engineers at this point. It doesn't change the fact about solidity. It should be no one's first language and I'd argue not even your primary language unless you are only working on first gen smart contracts. Limiting yourself to just smart contract work is very risk and there's languages more popular for both smart contracts and high performant applications (like Rust)


irkli t1_itwk71j wrote

My FORTRAN skills will be valuable again one day!!! Just you watch!!! Then I'll show you!!!


minusTHEoso25 t1_ity5c36 wrote

Extremely valuable if you are into meteorology/climate science, albeit you will be underpaid!


Milnoc t1_itx6sxv wrote

I know both C/C++ and COBOL. I could be hired to migrate antiquated systems. But I do have to admit COBOL has some huge advantages over C/C++ when it comes to floating point operations.


mmm_modulo t1_itxf86o wrote

Why is Rust becoming a popular language?


hacksoncode t1_itxjfyg wrote

Lots of jokesdubious observations to be made here based on the fact that:

price = demand / supply.

FreshInvestment_ t1_ity28p6 wrote

Are there people that just program in bash all day? If so, why?


TheLexoPlexx t1_ity9vzm wrote

Fortran, Bash, Lua, SQL? There is no one out there programming in only these languages. I am sorry to say this but it seems like this was made by someone not knowing any programming Language.


inkydeeps t1_itye4ye wrote

So glad I learned Fortran in high school.


Rogaar t1_ityfxqq wrote

Damn I'm so out of touch with programming languages. Half of these I've never heard of and I've been a bit of an amateur coder for 40 odd years.

I started on the C64 learning Basic.


VorianFromDune t1_ityiwzi wrote

Good luck finding a job with Erlang or even Rust.


Fabio_451 t1_itymodg wrote

Ok....but in which country?


Andress1 t1_itysjqz wrote

Typescript lower than Js...really didn't expect this considering that you need to know Js to use Typescript


Aradur87 t1_itz2h40 wrote

Wait, I could do 82k medium? Fml


lostharbor t1_iu0pooq wrote

Is react going to be inline or above javascript as it uses java?


Equivalent-Bench5950 t1_ityol2p wrote

These kinda post always make me sad becaus they remind me how little i earn relatively to my colleagues. Even though i chose the place i work at and often get offers of positions where i can earn 30-40% more i still get jealous... :/