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disciples_of_dissent t1_irnqbmz wrote

I've yet to see avideo of a bunch of white eighth grade boys flashing their glocks at school. It's a cultural issue.

(I'm fully expecting to be downvoted for pointing out truth, as much as we want to deflect and point at other reasons.)


Kelrakh t1_irqz55d wrote

Going from Thomas Sowell's thinking I'd say the main thing is subcultures where male self-assertion is used as a replacement for male achievement.


disciples_of_dissent t1_irratz1 wrote

I also believe this culture extends beyond just black kids, I believe anyone growing up in that culture has this mentality (whites, blacks, hispanics, asians). We just see the videos of the black kids.


Kelrakh t1_irsxehc wrote

Yeah it's pretty similar in gangs in Japan Korea Asia, even mafia in various places. Essentially if you don't have any prospect of achievement then you have to assert yourself somehow, if that is in your personality as it is with many people.

After a while the subculture starts mimicking that behavior even when the economic prospects and opportunity is present.

It's a lot easier to just self-assert yourself in the moment than spend years building up life achievements to gain a strong self-image that way.


Kenilwort t1_irrmop2 wrote

Maybe not flashing glocks, but flashing plenty of other types of guns and illegal stuff, sure. And I have yet to see a photo of a bunch of black eighth grade boys flashing their glocks in school either, because that's not something I search on Google to adhere to my selectivity bias.


clozepin t1_irrm4nu wrote

Have you not seen the white family Christmas cards where they’re all holding various guns? Cause I sure have.


gugudan t1_irnufpm wrote

Do you have videos of eighth grade boys of any ethnicity flashing their Glocks at school?

Or data that links eighth graders flashing Glocks at school with these hundreds of shootings?


857477459 t1_irn9l5i wrote

At my work we have the local news on every morning. Almost without fail there will be at least one story of a shooting. It's insane. What's more insane is I'll often get heavily downvoted on Reddit for pointing out the violence even though the facts are clear for all to see.


uhhiforget OP t1_irnc0pf wrote

Yeah, it's awful. Wasn't an 8 year old girl shot like a week or two ago? She lived, but damn...


857477459 t1_irnfvnx wrote

Kids get shot every week. These gang bangers have terrible aim. Tons of people just get caught in the crossfire.


Starlifter4 t1_irn2bws wrote

That's the data. The question is why?


Chuck_A_Wei_1 t1_irnwesv wrote

Industrial collapse is the most prominent theme among cities with a lot of violence.


uhhiforget OP t1_irn2pd3 wrote

A viscious cycle of tragic upbringings, and ultimately a lack of ownership for one's actions.


djarvis77 t1_irn4b9y wrote

Cheap, overly available weapons for sale just an hour or two away in pennsyltucky. If it were harder to gets weapons there would be fewer weapons. The vast majority of these shootings are done with weapons bought legally at one point, and like a fraction of a percent of these are done with full auto. Why? Because no one can get full auto.

Drugs being illegal, yet also a great sales opportunity (suburban and rural people go to the city to get drugs), means that those in the drug business have only guns as their level of business protection. Make drugs legal and regulated the business drops to a trickle and the shootings drop.


uhhiforget OP t1_irn52ja wrote

Those things would definitely do a lot to help.


4kNest t1_irpxkaj wrote

Actual question, not looking for a Gotcha! But - should we trust the government to implement the taking of guns away? The same government that can’t stop killing people during traffic stops, is looking to take peoples voting and free speech rights, ridding women of their choice - i don’t think that would be best. Also minorities may benefit most if not the most from owning firearms as they’re the main targets of violence - gay bashing’s, women getting raped, etc… Focusing on mental health would be a better strategy imo.


teamlessinseattle t1_irn9727 wrote

Judging by that map, poverty is unsurprisingly the #1 predictor


uhhiforget OP t1_irncslv wrote

No doubt, it's almost a 1:1 overlap.


teamlessinseattle t1_irnihum wrote

Just pointing out that your belief that “lack of ownership for one’s actions” is the cause assumes people living in these poorer neighborhoods are somehow morally inferior to those living in well-off neighborhoods, rather than, you know, it being about their material conditions and systemic neglect.


uhhiforget OP t1_irnqx2i wrote

I don't believe anyone is born with better morals than other people. Someone's up-bringing can definitely give them a distorted lense that makes it much more difficult to make morally correct decisions, but the choice is still on the individual to make. And a lot of these people are deciding to shoot each other. Its not as if poverty makes you a criminal. Additionally, a lot of the people in these areas make decisions that one way or another put them in the scenario in which they have children which they cannot/refuse to properly parent. So what's ultimately the cause of the perpetuated violence? The cycle needs to be broken somewhere along the line, and policy moves slow.


857477459 t1_irnoi8a wrote

Something else is actually the #1 predictor and we all know what it is but we're not allowed to say it.


teamlessinseattle t1_irp4wjx wrote

Wow yeah, it’s almost as if certain groups in America are somehow more likely to live in poverty than others. Surely that has nothing to do with our history though.


redeggplant01 t1_irn88zb wrote

Rampant gun violence is a red flag that your government has implemented bad gun control policies and disincentives gun ownership


JustaOrdinaryDemiGod t1_irnhkev wrote

If you go out into rural areas, the amount of gun ownership is alot higher and has no where near the amount of gun violence. So there is something else at play vs just the gun laws.


SeanyBravo t1_irnnm70 wrote

Suicides are conflated with gun violence to make is seem like gun violence is uniform with ownership.


Expandexplorelive t1_irp8ait wrote

Suicides are violence.


SeanyBravo t1_irp99j8 wrote

You don’t solve suicides with the same style of programs or legislation that you solve homicides and assaults with. One is an issue of mental health well the other is an issue of many confounding factors such as poverty, gangs, and educations. If you honestly want solutions to either of these problems we have to treat them as different types of violence. Treating them as the same only is used as a way to manipulate data to make problems appear to have different roots then they really do.


Expandexplorelive t1_irpa5n7 wrote

>You don’t solve suicides with the same style of programs or legislation that you solve homicides and assaults with.

I mostly agree.

>Treating them as the same only is used as a way to manipulate data to make problems appear to have different roots then they really do.

To what end?


SeanyBravo t1_irpc8vt wrote

its an effort to make it appear that higher legal gun ownership rates = higher gun homicide and shooting rates as that’s what people typically associate with the term gun violence. If we consider suicides and criminal shootings the same we get the leaders in gun “violence” per capita being the likes of AK, MT, and other rural state with high amounts of gun suicides to total population. If we don’t include suicides in gun violence we end up getting leading state like IL, DC, Missouri, and some of the poorer southern states. Some of these places still have high gun ownership rates well others have Low ownership rates. The reality is that poverty and lower education do a lot better job of predicting gun violence then legal ownership rates.

This site has a map that helps visualize the differences when we consider suicides versus when we don’t.


Chuck_A_Wei_1 t1_irnw8c8 wrote

Pretty sure it has more to do with the collapse of industry and the complicated socioeconomic conditions of cities, and nothing to do with insufficient incentives for gun ownership.

Many of the cities with the worst gun violence are in states with some of the most gun friendly laws, like St Louis, Missouri; Birmingham, Alabama; Memphis, Tennessee; and Dayton, Ohio (all of which have experienced industrial collapse in recent generations).


mmarollo t1_iroc4je wrote

The area where I grew up has almost universal gun ownership and a near zero homicide rate. The UK rid of guns and the gangs there just started killing each other with knives. I wish it was as simple to fix as you think it is.


Expandexplorelive t1_irp8g8o wrote

What is the overall homicide rate or homicide-by-knife rate in the UK and how does it compare to the US?


brian_sahn t1_irndxw9 wrote

Can you link a study that shows this? I’m skeptical because everything I see is the opposite


SeanyBravo t1_irnnhrq wrote

Both these link conflate suicides whit gun violence. When this is done it to make gun “violence” seem more uniform when the reality is that place where guns are legally available to the citizen have more gun suicides well the place where guns are hard to obtain for any citizen tend to have more non-gun suicides. Making data on violence appear uniform when it’s far from the truth.


[deleted] t1_irnowfx wrote



SeanyBravo t1_irns8ti wrote

Your own links stat that they included the fact that 60% of gun deaths are suicides. When we don’t control for suicides we get leaders in gun “violence” being the likes of AK, WY, and MT. When we only look at police and criminal shootings places like IL, DC, and the impoverished southern state lead.

You can look at this handy map here

The reality is that the predictors of gun violence is more closely related to poverty then ownership.

Pretending gun suicides and gun violence are the same keeps you unable to solve either issue as you will never address the true root problems.


Kelrakh t1_irqzx1q wrote

The problem with gun ownership is that you risk a societal arms race. Once you are in one it's like riding a tiger, a lot more dangerous to get off than to get on.

I think though, that gun ownership could be mostly upheld if gun violence went down.

Though I don't see much desire among owners to help with the efforts to do that.

My own take is that replacing male achievement with male self-assertion is the one of the main causes of gang violence, firearms use, crime, etc.


redeggplant01 t1_irr05gn wrote

No, you don't ... and the violent crime rate in the US ( of which gun violence ( real gun violence not suicides and accidents being lumped in ) is a small subset ) is a lot lower that other Western nations with their repressive gun laws


aradil t1_irtp37s wrote

Got an example?

[edit] They gave an example of Australia that appears to have been deleted by a mod, and then appear to have blocked me.

The closest the murder rate per 100k population between the US and Australia has been in the last 5 years was 5 times worse in the US than in Australia. Try again.


dicky_cockpunch t1_irqs49z wrote

It would be nice to see a national map like this. I'll bet the mayhem is concentrated in big cities.


Kenilwort t1_irrndfj wrote

Yes, it's the famous xkcd: more things happen in big cities because there are more people.


[deleted] t1_irngwrk wrote

Every SINGLE gun used was someone's LEGAL firearm before someone either didn't secure it properly or sold it illegally. Try and work on that Stat first.


uhhiforget OP t1_irnr5bx wrote

Every single shooting was done by a person who decided to shoot another person.


[deleted] t1_irnrfd2 wrote

Lol no. Not every shooting in Philly was an intentional shooting.