You must log in or register to comment.

gorbok t1_ixzzkr9 wrote

A donut chart where the categories are different colours and in different positions so you can’t easily compare anything? I see nothing beautiful here.


Winjin t1_iy09t59 wrote

But but but they're in brand colour!



anon-1 t1_iy0o3fq wrote

Finally, someone gets what's important.


Soldarumi t1_iy0zdmw wrote

You jest, but my god if we put something out even internally without the Green Dot there is hell to pay.


TheBirminghamBear t1_iy2i81c wrote

Not Deloitte, but used to work for a big company that was as zealous about their logo / stylebook.

I once had the audacity to make a totally internal-only powerpoint where I had a little stick figure guy with the company's logo for a head, just a fun little anthropormophization to make dry material a little more interesting.

One of the marketing execs was in the room. i swear you would have thought I sacrificed a puppy during that meeting, for how outraged and even revolted they were by that.


DruTangClan t1_iy0dcbn wrote

And even then I always thought Deloitte had a more blue color scheme


Good_old_Marshmallow t1_iy556if wrote

You joke but they have REALLY strong brand identities in the accounting world it would be one of those mildly infuriating things if it was off


Major_Independence_6 t1_ixzup9q wrote

Would be more useful if terminology was consistent and you show consulting services in detail for all of them. OP just takes data from a random industry and makes a simple chart without any context.


Rollover_Hazard t1_iy08ybd wrote

Exactly lol. These companies are the biggest tax/ consultancy/ auditing firms in the world.

It turns out they all generate huge revenue from tax/ consultancy/ auditing.

Shocked pikachu


otclogic t1_iy0mztb wrote

This chart looks fine but once you read the labels it’s less than useless.


haqglo11 t1_iy2fo76 wrote

Not useless. Yeah, could have normalized the service names, but essentially this is saying Deloitte has a $37bn consulting business versus EY and PwC having roughly $20bn consulting business versus KPMG coming in at $13bn

Deloitte never spun consulting so they have a massive lead hence the outsized revenue

Transactions and risk advisory is typically part of consulting or advisory, as some firms call it


IambicPentakill t1_iy0fi19 wrote

Also consistent colors. Make all the tax work yellow or whatever. Not beautiful.


paperrug12 t1_iy0l8d3 wrote

well the colors are the company colors.


IambicPentakill t1_iy0v0sd wrote

Obviously. Which makes it very challenging to compare and therefore not a good presentation of data.


orhan94 t1_iy2zt5s wrote

And since the colors aren't consistent for the different services, you have to read the labels for each one to compare them.

Meaning this graphic is less useful when comparing the four than a small paragraph of text with the same information. Which defeats the purpose of it being a visual representation of the data in question.


Good_old_Marshmallow t1_iy5522i wrote

The colors are the company colors and I can’t understate how strong their branding is. If you go to school for accounting they bombard you with their recruiting/marketing constantly. To the point where they explicitly will sponsor professors at some schools.


civil_beast t1_iy1ennu wrote

Yes - intrigued to learn the distinction b/n advisory services and consulting.. I’ll hang up And listen


Sparkatarka t1_iy1l1ss wrote

The difference is basically branding and how the companies split the different offerings. Effectively they can all he called consulting or advisory. EY specifically rebranded from advisory to consulting a few years back without changing business models at all.


gyang333 t1_iy2llgf wrote

Deloitte uses both Consulting and Advisory though.


gyang333 t1_iy2ljzm wrote

Hard to do consistent terminology as the firms have different service line categorizations. For example, EY and KPMG terms Risk Advisory as "Consulting" while PwC terms Risk as Assurance, and Deloitte groups it in its own category. That's just one example. I think Financial Advisory is the same kind of inconsistency amongst the 4.


Major_Independence_6 t1_iy2mflx wrote

Assurance is audit.

Advisory is consulting.


gyang333 t1_iy2mt78 wrote

I know that. But look at the Deloitte breakouts. There's Risk Advisory, Financial Advisory, and also Consulting. Deloitte breaks it out differently than the other 3 do. Financial Advisory, is known as FAAS at EY - Financial Accounting Advisory Services but it's a joint venture between Assurance and Consulting and the revenue is split between the two service lines at EY, while at D it's its own category.


Major_Independence_6 t1_iy3r3b8 wrote

I think the bigger takeaway is that this chart is useless because there’s no real world application for any of the data. Revenue doesn’t tell a story. We all know that 4 firms have an oligopoly, collude on billing rates, don’t need to compete with one another, have barriers to entry, and the government protects them.


uberseed t1_iy3t47o wrote

You have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone can create their own CPA firm and there are tons of those.


Major_Independence_6 t1_iy3u8ck wrote

Oh right, I forgot about all those small firms that provide consulting, tax, and audit services to public companies, and sit on the boards of public companies. 🙄

Oligopolies are indefensible. I find it odd that anyone would argue that they don’t exist and/or defend them.


uberseed t1_iy3wivc wrote

Yes you actually forgot about them. RSM and Grant Thornton and many others have public clients.


Major_Independence_6 t1_iy4w545 wrote

To say that middle market firms compete with the big 4 for public company clients is laughable.


LordFaquaad t1_iy4rlp4 wrote

Lol collude on billing rates. These firms absolutely compete with one another. It's some of the most competitive behavior I've seen in any industry.

The government does not protect them. Please read up on the PCAOB. No one is forcing their clients to work with them. Clients can always choose to change firms. Idk what you're talking about.

Also they're not really an ogilopolu since firms like GT and RSM also have large assurance practices


Major_Independence_6 t1_iy593bc wrote

I’ve been on both sides for many years. Billing rates are basically the same across the big 4 and across middle market (RSM, GT, BDO, etc.). In my experience, billing rates were very rarely the deciding factor in winning a new audit client or selecting a firm for audit, tax or consulting.

RSM is the 5th largest firm worldwide, and is not even close to the top 4. The top is controlled by the 4 firms listed here, with little to no competition from other smaller firms.


S0mething_3ls3 t1_iy2hn0u wrote

These are probably their department names within the company, and Deloitte and EY probably just have enough consulting business to have their own department.


JohnRichJ2 t1_ixzdgff wrote

seems like it’s all pretty much the same, but just named differently.


lgt_celticwolf t1_iy00ert wrote

Well this is actually pretty much correct, these sectors all have to be independant from eachother, eg you cant use kpmg to audit if you use them for consulting. These companies often pass clients to eachother ina you scratch my back I scratch yours. Its partly how they manage to keep eachother in the top spots.


numberpack17 t1_iy0lgv5 wrote

Your first point is true, but your second point is pure conspiracy. These firms work on the largest companies due to a multitude of reasons, but not the one you listed. Primarily due to: staffing, geographical presence, reputation, etc.

I’ve worked on audits where a competitor (big 4) was doing advisory work and constantly trying to get management to switch to them for audit work. There is very much no back scratching.


Bigmo7 t1_ixzydgo wrote

Advisory and consulting are basically the same. A small legend and using the same naming convention would have been really helpful to make the comparisons easier between them since they all do basically the same work.


muftu t1_iy07a3i wrote

Assurance and audit are pretty much the same thing too.


otclogic t1_iy0n6d3 wrote

Which is also similar to Tax and Legal services


Bigmo7 t1_iy0phcv wrote

Tax is usually a separated out line of service to audit/assurance. Typically it’s audit, consulting, deals and tax as the main 4 lines of service.


Cowboyfan1000 t1_iy0kizb wrote

Consulting and advisory are pretty different. But there other options for consolidation. The advisory’s within deloitte could be combined. S&T with EY is basically advisory. Interesting that consulting isn’t broken out for PwC and KPMG.


MajorXTREME t1_iy6nzik wrote

PwC sold their consulting arm a while back to IBM, maybe that’s the reason for the different terminology?


PeanutFarmer69 t1_iy1lsbl wrote

This isn’t exactly true, a lot of what Deloitte includes under “Risk Advisory” would be considered “Advisory” at KPMG for example.


rehtulx t1_iy0pijk wrote

Advisory and Consulting at Deloitte at least are quite different—and pay quite differently as well.


Deepwater98 t1_iy0ml2p wrote

Advisory is basically audit…


numberpack17 t1_iy19y0o wrote

Not true at all. Very different service lines.


Deepwater98 t1_iy1imc7 wrote

I worked in both audit and advisory…. but okay.


numberpack17 t1_iy1p6l1 wrote

What kind of advisory were you doing that was similar to audit? Current auditor with lots of advisory friends so I’m pretty familiar as well.

I see SOX implementation, M&A advisory, IT Advisory, etc. none of which I would consider similar to audit.


Deepwater98 t1_iy1qhkq wrote

SOX readiness, as well as implementation, IT advisory, Internal Audit, Business Processes & Controls I did them all as part of “advisory” at green dot.

Very similar to audit, not sure why you think it’s so different, business controls are business controls the IT portion can be taught, internal audit/risk can be taught.

I touch a ton of M&A/deal work (mainly under ~$100M deals) as a head of finance for a private retailer, but again, it’s not all that different from audit.


NauticalJeans t1_iy03067 wrote

FYI, coming from an ex-EY employee - Audit and Assurance are the same thing


0tt0attack t1_iy19w8b wrote

Technically Audit is a service under assurance. But for lamans, yes


imchuy09 t1_iy20axv wrote

Right, the other assurance service is review


splendorinthegrass_ t1_iy0277l wrote

Stacked bar chart would have been a better visualization


azvnza t1_iy04m8w wrote

people saying audit is a joke because of a handful landmark problems… when the fortune 500 and thousands and thousands of other companies have used these firms with no issue


vermillionskye t1_iy0bps7 wrote

You screw up at the Oscars once and people lose their minds… /s


jack_spankin t1_iy11nr7 wrote

Fucking awful chart. No consistency.


lungben81 t1_ixzefhc wrote

And there is absolutely no conflict of interest when they do audit and consulting at the same time...


polkaguy6000 t1_ixzjvgx wrote

Good thing that hasn't been allowed for the last 20 years:–Oxley_Act


Noumenon_Invictus t1_ixzprlq wrote

It still exists


Velvy71 t1_ixzrdoh wrote

Yeah, because the big four don’t help governments set policies which disadvantage the small and solo consultancies. In the UK they’ve heavily influenced the tax treatment of small companies, leaving the market open only to the very biggest. So maybe they’re not directly breaching SOx and it’s European equivalents, but they are certainly profiting from an ability to shape the market for each other.


LeviathanGank t1_ixzwspw wrote

yes but they are looking out for their client, not the little guy.. they are scum bags


HegemonNYC t1_ixzud3h wrote

They aren’t allowed to advise and audit the same client.


lungben81 t1_iy04sm7 wrote

The Big4 are quite active in consulting business at large financial institutions (at least in Germany). At the same time, there are only these 4 audit firms and auditors must change every few years. Thus, the likelihood that the same company is consulting and auditing the same client at the same time, or in short succession, is quite high.

The official "solution" to this potential conflict of interest is that 2 different sections of the big4 company do consulting and auditing. But I do not know how solid this separation is in practice.


DeTrotseTuinkabouter t1_iy0hhmr wrote

The likelihood is very damn low. I worked at a Big4 in consulting, not being able to service audit customers was a huge problem for us and simply cut our addressable market by 25% (assuming that there are only four audit firms and we were one of them). I think technically to some amount it could be exempted but in practice it was as good as impossible.


dragonlax t1_iy0ylq3 wrote

Literally part of the proposal process is making sure there are no audit restrictions. (I worked at EY for 5 years in consulting)


kthnxbai123 t1_ixzuiun wrote

Most big orgs heavily enforce no conflicts of interests. A few contracts aren’t worth the loss in prestige if there are even whispers of it.


DeTrotseTuinkabouter t1_iy0hn5u wrote

The fact that this is upvotes speaks volumes about how much you should trust comments and opinions on Reddit.


amerricka369 t1_iy05pg7 wrote

They aren’t allowed to consult and audit on same client. EY is spinning out their consulting business as a separate company and the other 3 are considering it as well.


IambicPentakill t1_iy0fsuu wrote

The accounting industry has been very heavily regulated since twenty years ago.


LeviathanGank t1_ixzwnrw wrote

they generally consult and audit against each other.. wont be all in house


dragonlax t1_iy0ygkw wrote

They legally can’t do consulting work for clients they audit, I worked at EY consulting for 5 years and it was a pain because we were missing out on huge projects, hence why they’re spinning off consulting.


lungben81 t1_iy2kef5 wrote

How is the separation done? Are these 2 different legal entities? Are they located in different buildings? Do they have different owners? Is there an overlap / exchange of employees?

The brand names are obviously not different.


dragonlax t1_iy3a8mi wrote

It’s regulated by the US and other local governments. There are internal processes that are also in place to prevent the conflict of interest.


pale_blue_dots t1_ixziy46 wrote

Nah. Not at all. Just like how many large investment firms have market maker arms and hedge fund arms. They'd never, ever communicate between their branches to make boatloads of money.

Edit: lol what the hell... nice downvotes for sheer, unadulterated facts.


ice1133 t1_iy137xf wrote

"breaking down how they make their money"... Seem to be missing a category for "not paying overtime to associates who constantly work 60-80 hour weeks"


dragonlax t1_iy0y57y wrote

EY about to spin off that consulting division


Relevant_Pause_7593 t1_iy3arko wrote

Interesting that it’s only ~30% of business- when they talk about the split being 50/50…


nyancat645 t1_iy3miix wrote

Consulting would basically take everything but assurance practice and like 30% of tax because they're necessary for audits.


Saugeen-Uwo t1_iy1bw65 wrote

Great place to start a career. Terrible place to make a career (Ex KPMGer here)


fail0verflowf9 t1_iy1iyie wrote

As an ex KPMG employee myself, I can confirm that this statement is true.


CertifiedSlav t1_iy3ekwz wrote

I have just started working at KPMG (its been 6m already). Based on your comments can you clarify more why is that so ? I want to leave already due to their work&life balance. Here in Uzb we have to work even on weekends to meet the deadlines. I presume that at higher lvls its even harder to find a free time


JagmeetSingh2 t1_iy0f3xq wrote

Advising and consulting seems to be big business


DeTrotseTuinkabouter t1_iy0i3jr wrote

Why would you not include percentages??

Bar charts would also have been nicer. One of the things you (hopefully) learn at these firms is to avoid pie (or doughnut) charts.


xl129 t1_iy2xgue wrote

This is really confusing, how am i gonna make use of this chart when labeling and coloring are all over the place

Stop heamorrhage pointless graph like this, data should be meaningful, looking nice come after.


vormittag t1_iy1jj6j wrote

For us outsiders, what does "assurance" refer to?


IrwinJFinster t1_iy3fuoi wrote

Assurance = auditing, but can refer to both financial audits and non-financial audits (e.g., internal controls over regulatory areas).


tofuexpert t1_iy1uggu wrote

What’s the difference between consulting and advisory


IrwinJFinster t1_iy3g2x4 wrote

None, really. It will just be consulting by a different name but focused on a particular business sector.


MastodonEast922 t1_iy72oq6 wrote

Typically they are the same, but for the sake of this graph, I would call consulting more of a management advisory function where you provide support on ambiguous transactions, sometimes yes or no decisions while advisory for a lot of these firms is simply an outsourced accounting function providing something like an internal audit function, 606 adoption, or some other specific accounting function that the Company cannot currently staff with their own employees.


yangbanger t1_iy2hj7j wrote

Let us not forget there used to be a “big 5”, but Arthur Anderson went belly up after the Enron debacle.

I’ll never forget that partner testifying in front of Congress. He kept saying we followed GAAP


Qkumbazoo t1_iy2q1vb wrote

I've worked with EY & PWC, their tech consultants are absolute nonsense that they hired 2 months prior to work on your project. It's no different than a branded manpower bodyshop.


_airsick_lowlander_ t1_iy3ment wrote

To the haters on so many of the top posts here, these groups are not apples to apples between companies and no way to line them up. I've worked at two of these companies and the divisions shown in this chart are the actual names by each company.


FR_FX t1_iy6bskt wrote

A summer intern made this and was freaking out the whole time, please be kind.


niftyifty t1_ixzocg3 wrote

Heh I got this email as well


jemand84 t1_iy1al38 wrote

Per country stats would be nice.


randorubble1047 t1_ixztttk wrote

You can see why there’s a lot of lobbying to prevent tax reform.


Yacobeam t1_iy0lzo3 wrote

Consultants are ruining America


Gnash_ t1_iy11qm7 wrote

have these companies ever created something to help mankind progress in any way? all of these words scream bureaucratic complacency and money laundering to me


0tt0attack t1_iy19b3b wrote

Without Deloitte and PwC the US government would not be able to function. Accounting services are necessary for corporations to function. Without them, corporations performance is immeasurable and the entire financial system would collapse. Very significant number of corporations and governments rely on these companies to manage accounting and operations.

Just cuz you do not understand what they do, that does not mean it is money laundering. And who does money laundering in a business where all its revenue comes from large contracts and 90% of their expenses is salary. That is the dumbest money laundering concept ever.


CharlieSixFive t1_ixzy761 wrote

You missed hiding their clients illegal profits from the authorities.

For all downvoters: do a quick search for "21 Scandals, Settlements and Corporate Crimes of Big 4 Accounting Firms in 2019", just to get an impression.


Unhappy-camper383 t1_iy0bgw3 wrote

As someone who works in tax at Deloitte, I can assure you this isn’t something we do


CharlieSixFive t1_iy0di9s wrote

In the Netherlands Deloite is nicknamed Delouche. Louche can be translated as shady. I really don't know how that happened. /s


Unhappy-camper383 t1_iy0foh0 wrote

Sounds like it’s pretty clear how the nickname spread, considering you were under the impression what they do is shady


0tt0attack t1_iy1b974 wrote

Ya, 10s of thousands of audits are performed every year. However, those 21 defective audits are a large enough sample to represent all the thousands of partners and hundreds of thousands of employees who work in these corporations. Bullet proof logic there.


freefallfreddy t1_iy0fltt wrote

Do y’all also get an icky feeling with these companies? Like they’re the sleazy accountants and enforcers for multinationals? Allowing them to do dirty business, push legal boundaries, squeeze small countries for all they’re worth and basically help them get away with all kinds of shit?


0tt0attack t1_iy19ltq wrote

Sorry buddy, you need more than “feelings” here. And the majority of these companies revenue comes from US and Europe. Not exactly “small” countries.


Rover54321 t1_ixzwry4 wrote

Absolutely love these Sankey graphs GI Team, pls keep em coming!!!


gorbok t1_ixzzd8i wrote

I think this promotion bot is broken.


Rover54321 t1_iy01tuv wrote

What can I say, I love me my Sankeys!!!


Cheeseburgerbanter t1_ixzy8hr wrote

"Audit" here is a gigantic joke. They get paid to sign off accounts, if they refuse to sign off, the client threatens to get the audit done by one of their competitors, so they sign it off. EY famously signed off Wirecard's accounts just before it turned out to be a huge gangster money laundering front. Such a joke of an industry


SkarbOna t1_iy18xs3 wrote

I agree with you, but just been attacked by the auditors side, also other guy in comment saying you’re getting graduate for crazy money. It’s a joke. I can confirm. Auditor asking for a definition of the most fundamental aspect of our business at the end of audit where it was mentioned in various contexts to explain numbers is just embarrassing. The chief accountant said something along lines that it was most painful moment in his career. It means he understood jack shit from the whole process and just ticks the boxes.


0tt0attack t1_iy1artm wrote

Ya, these companies do 10s of thousands of audits. Not to mention have individual partners that make decisions. Just cuz 2 dozen of audits are defective that does not mean the industry is a “joke.” Ask anyone in the financial, banking or even government, what will happen if these services are stopped. Absolute chaos.


J-TownVsTheCity t1_iy0tklm wrote

I can’t speak for audits but it’s true the industry is a joke. You pay $400 an hour for consultants and you get grads with zero industry experience.

It’s a sham. Good businesses don’t use or need their consultants. Why would you pay that kind of money for jumped up PowerPoint grifters?


SkarbOna t1_iy0dre4 wrote

Auditors are giant joke. They understand jack shit from numbers they’re looking at.

Seeing problems where there’s none, completely missing out methodology client applied that intentionally or not (I can’t believe I’m saying this, but both consultants and accountants as high up as cfo, understood shit of what data were screaming to me) was over reporting some stuff.


Asterbuster t1_iy0g6a7 wrote

You win, this is the dumbest comment in the whole thread. Not because of the take per se, but because you sound like 'geeks' in TV shows when script calls for "technospeak", you have no clue what you are talking about.


SkarbOna t1_iy0q3xd wrote

Sorry about that. I am data fixated geek. Which part would you like me to explain? I can provide examples as much as I can disclose? Been doing regulatory and auditory reporting for few years now, and academic/fixed templates minds have 0chance to see what’s wrong with numbers based on process explanations that been provided, but will be picking up on most irrelevant nuances like I don’t know rounding numbers on excels they provided. Maybe it’s just my experience or maybe other people don’t care so much- don’t know.


Asterbuster t1_iy0yuin wrote

You don't have the foundational knowledge about the topic to talk about it; this is evident from your comment about 'methodology', and the lack of understanding of what exactly is an audit and how audits are performed. There are lots of bad auditors out there, but Big4 know what they are doing with some minor exceptions (like in any field), your blanket statement about auditors is the same as yelling "I have no clue what I'm talking about".

Also, as self proclaimed 'data geek', maybe open a wiki article, it will clearly explain why audit is not 'a joke'.

PS if a high level wiki article knows more than you about a given topic, maybe consider not going around sharing your opinions with such confidence.


SkarbOna t1_iy14rl2 wrote

What do you know about the topic? Seriously? I’ve been through audits first providing data then helping finance to answer follow up questions as I know more about operations than they do- maybe not the biggest company, but not small either.


Asterbuster t1_iy15u56 wrote

I developed audit strategies and methodologies, led a number of audits of international multi-billion and smaller companies as part of Big4, including pre-IPO, US/UK/IFRS/SOX, as well as went through those audits as a client FP&A. I also developed curriculum for my Big4 that thousands of audit new hires went through.

You have a case of Dunning-Kruger.


SkarbOna t1_iy17cf4 wrote

Ohhhh that’s why you felt so pressed. Good for you. My experience is different - maybe we should hire you then. I considered seeking for job there, but doesn’t like the fact that me finding out the dirt won’t make me popular. After all, one side can’t exist without the other so……


Asterbuster t1_iy17wmd wrote

I don't feel pressed, no need to make assumptions, we already know you keep missing. I have left the field years ago and have no interest in it.


SkarbOna t1_iy1948p wrote

Hope it was a loss for the industry. Your assumptions about me are extremely wrong.


giteam OP t1_ixz3p0q wrote


KPMG, EY, Deloitte, PwC

Genuine Impact newsletter - we do 6 -10 charts like this each week!




993targa t1_ixz44fq wrote

This is great - but it would be much easier to read if the slices representing the same things were the same color …


tealchameleon t1_iy0etvq wrote

And if everything was labeled the same (instead of consulting & advising as separate terms, name them the same!)


njetno t1_iy0f5d0 wrote

The companies’ services aren’t structured the same way though so that’s not really possible


GloriousDawn t1_iy01i36 wrote

Funny how they all spell tax evasion services in such different ways


EDIT : Big Four accounting firms are key drivers of tax haven use, new research says


Asterbuster t1_iy04cvy wrote

Lol, the education level in this comment section is lower than reddit in general.


0tt0attack t1_iy1a3wc wrote

I know. Most people do not even understand what these companies even do.


Thug_shinji t1_ixzrbqf wrote

Imagine trusting any audit opinions from any of these organizations.


NauticalJeans t1_iy03l1n wrote

As someone who used to work in EY audit, the level of compliance and standards these days (after SOX) are pretty damn high. Every opinion has to filter through all levels of the firm (staff to partner) before it is signed off, and peer reviews are regular. It’s a pretty are tight system these days. I’m sure corruption still happens, but I never saw it, and the standards are high.


manbehindthespraytan t1_iy0bxwk wrote

Hiding the corruption is the only job the CEO has. Seems like they are doing their "job", too.


Asterbuster t1_iy048wd wrote

What a dumb take. There is a reason companies pay $$$ to get audit opinion from trusted companies instead of smaller ones.


HammerTh_1701 t1_ixzw43z wrote

It's not like there are any other actually relevant auditing firms. That's exactly the point of the term "the big four". It's either these or nothing.


Thug_shinji t1_ixzx1pt wrote

How are you defining relevant? PWC gave evergrande a clean bill of health to help them secure more loans for gods sake. They are peak irrelevance.


clydeav t1_iy08smi wrote

Not just PWC. To my understanding Big 4 in China is more like licensing out of brand name than actual Big 4. The regulatory environment there is entirely different and there are scandals left and right. It is not really fair to compare B4 China to the arms elsewhere which typically at least try to provide quality work. Whether or not they do is a different argument but audits in China are pretty much meaningless due to corruption.