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Tato7069 t1_ix3qjzd wrote

There's not really much context here... Weren't more migrants coming to Qatar to work on this stuff? Deaths per 100k would actually show something

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pesv95ab t1_ix44ywu wrote

It is lacking context big time and has been manipulated even more.

Yes more migrants have come to Qatar because of the World Cup, but the migrant population has alway been huge in Qatar. Native Qataries are about 12% of the population. The rest are migrants. There re more people from India (700k), Bangladesh and Nepal (400k each) Vs Locals 330k. That ratio has been around for decades plus minus a few %. Last time locals were a majority in their own country was in the 1980s, before gas and oil.

Also it is all deaths...including old age, disease, car crashes, murder and so on.

Also they include deaths before the stadiums even began building. And the 2020 numbers include Covid deaths.

They also ignore conditions at home Vs conditions there for the migrants. Have anyone been in India lately during the summer and how hot is it there? And how crappy the living conditions are for many people?

And what about the other Gulf Nations? Qatar is an "enemy" because of their good relations with Iran and bad relations with Saudi Arabia. They are also behind Al Jazeera, which pisses off Saudi Arabia, and other gulf nations for exposing their dirty laundry. There has been a defacto cold war going on for over 10 years. Hell Saudi Arabia were looking into digging ditch so the Qatar would become a island.

Migrants have built the gulf since the 1970s and have lived under the same conditions and worse as the ones in Qatar since long before that.. and just now it becomes a problem for one country and not the others? I have personally witnessed these conditions in the 1980s and 1990s and they could be absolutely horrible compared to western standards. Oddly enough no one complained much back then, because western companies and countries were earning big bucks. No one talked much about it when building up Dubai and it's big buildings... You think the migrants were treated better there?

No when we start banning Manchester City, Arsenal, Newcastle, PSG, Real Madrid due to their ties to gulf countries...not buying oil and gas, not having our companies in those countries...who all use the same exploitation practices ironically..then maybe things would change...but that ain't gonna happen.

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Fr0stpie t1_ix5cqt0 wrote

Hey yo yo hold on just because we are top of the table doest mean we are an oil club. Arsenal is owned by kse. Stan kroenke is a douche but still we didn't splash a load of money like other oil clubs.

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pesv95ab t1_ix5hvuu wrote

Emirates Stadium, and Fly Emirates on the shirt. Who do you think built the airports Emirates fly from and fancy hotels and resorts they supply tourists with?

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zeelbeno t1_ix69qj2 wrote

Don't forget their 'visit Rwanda' sponsership... that aged well

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Fr0stpie t1_ix5isky wrote

That goes for every stadium and airport in the world. I donts get it how arsenal came in all this. Every club have ties in some other way with that logic. Ac milan lyon hell there is even a emirates fa cup ? I dont condone all the innocents lives lost but if u bring politics in sports there will be very less to enjoy. Dont forget up until last season chelsea was being owned by abrahimovic. Lets not go down that rabbit hole

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pesv95ab t1_ix5l0vh wrote

I don't disagree.

But my point is the hypocrisy by especially the British media (who have been leading the charge) is massive. No complaints about Man City and their owners, but plenty of crap about Qatar. There was moaning when Newcastle was taken over, but nothing compared to this. And not a peep when Emirates got naming rights on the new Arsenal stadium.

If people really want to change things, then going after Arsenal or City or any other business that does business with gulf nations is far more effective than going after Qatar for something the whole region does and on a much bigger scale. Not to mention this world cup is forgotten by January 1st, and the leagues with sponsors from the very same problem countries start up. Real Madrid has emirates as sponsor too..just saying.

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jmr1190 t1_ix5qqr8 wrote

If you pay attention, plenty of people are complaining about those things too - and have been for years.

Sportswashing is a real thing and it’s killing sport. Qatar is no different.

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apply75 t1_ix5ka0b wrote

I think the goal of the chart is to show from absolute number of deaths. Average deaths were about 1,000 which increased to 1300 (30% increase) then 1600...then 2000 which is double from 15 years ago.

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Tato7069 t1_ix5vr0r wrote

Okay... Then the goal is dumb... There are many many more deaths in New York city today than in 1900...because there are more people, not because it's more dangerous. Without population info or deaths per x number of people, the info doesn't really tell you anything

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jamintime t1_ix6zv1c wrote

If you compare the number of deaths per year in the U.S. from 1955 to today the total has roughly doubled. That's because the population has doubled. This graph is pretty meaningless.

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telendria t1_ix7hbcs wrote

how about from 2005?

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jamintime t1_ix8yqc0 wrote

Qatar's population went from 860,000 in 2005 to nearly 3 million today. So you could argue that the number of migrant deaths per capita is actually going down.

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andylikescandy t1_ix3u6ed wrote

According to the chart there were around 22,000 deaths during construction... That's around 1% of Qatar's non-migrant population, and I suspect the number of migrants did not exceed the local pop. Even if it's off by 10x, 2,000 would be obscene for any modern construction project (merely) assembling buildings on Earth's surface.

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BenUFOs_Mum t1_ix45zai wrote

But it's not construction, it's all deaths. And foreign workers make up nearly 90% of the population.

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Luddevig t1_ix40gdy wrote

Qatar's non-migrant population is like 400 000, and they have over 2 million migrant workers. So we still land at 1% death rate in 10 years.

I would like to know the probability of death in ten years for a healthy man living in India to know if 1% in ten years is high or not.

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asdftom t1_ix4tv7w wrote

The probability of death for an Indian man aged 25 over the next 10 years is 1.8% according to the data here.

That is for all men, not just healthy which you would expect migrants to be. But most men aged 25-35 are quite healthy I imagine.

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Luddevig t1_ix5r5sj wrote

Thanks for looking it up! But yeah, since the death rate is higher for an Indian man than a migrant worker I guess a big enough percentage has some kind of illness that they die of.

All in all it means that I don't know that thousands of migrant workers has died because of bad treatment. I still think that this is the case, and I still know that they live under dreadful circumstances and that hundreds have died because of unsafe working environments (https://cardsofqatar.com/en/the-cards/).

Also, since Qatar restrics journalists heavily and doesn't give out proper death data we really shouldn't give them the benefit of doubt.

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asdftom t1_ix5x4ik wrote

My conclusion is I think very similar to yours.

There are many problems with how migrant workers are treated but we don't know enough to conclude even roughly how many excess deaths were caused. But Qatar's lack of information provision forces us to assume the worst.

There is enough to criticize Qatar about without firmly stating a specific number for migrant deaths. And imo focusing on this misleading statistic of migrant deaths will undermine all the valid criticisms of Qatar.

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Pinetrees1990 t1_ix5jfla wrote

The BBC's investigation said on average there were 50 deaths a year for " stadium building" related deaths. The rest were normal deaths.

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Luddevig t1_ix5s5en wrote

Thanks. That would be 50 workers * 8 stadiums * 5 years for each = 2000?

I would imagine many also died from their living conditions that were promised to be a lot better than they were. And the infrastructure was a much larger project than the stadiums which would mean like 4000 additional deaths? Maybe that was included in the stadium building?

Anyway, at least 2000 is good to know.

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Pinetrees1990 t1_ix5sdhs wrote

No that was across all stadiums I believe

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Luddevig t1_ix5thkx wrote

Oh okay. Like 500 then (the stadiums were built over 10 years)! And 1000 from infrastructure and ... 1000 from bad living environments? My guess would be 2500 then, and at least 500.

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Chomchomtron t1_ix432sm wrote

Migrants are about 85% of the population in Qatar now, about 3 million people (NYT), but of course that swelled a lot due to construction needs compared to before. Deaths per 10000 in construction work in the US is about 10 (OSHA). The numbers in that chart are not different in comparison, not to mention there are difficulties even getting good figures due to how intransparent Qatar is.

There are lots of things to criticize Qatar for, why focus on this?

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andylikescandy t1_ix4gx7b wrote

Hold on, looks like I was wrong but that's still not right... About 2 million migrants, even with lower estimates from elsewhere of 6000 dead that's like 30 per 10,000 workers, and an upper estimate (this chart) of over 100 per 10,000...

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Tato7069 t1_ix4lu3k wrote

It didn't say anything about a construction project, it's total deaths in the country, caused by whatever... As far as I can tell

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voltek2108 t1_ix3yhu2 wrote

Yeah but they have oil and they paid those despicable old men millions, so why not let a few nobodies die right?

Allah has a paedo tash and the Quran was originally written on toilet paper whilst high on jenkum :)

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