Submitted by RandomKidIsMe t3_z5nhim in explainlikeimfive
pdpi t1_ixy1gfj wrote
Reply to comment by Czl2 in ELI5: Why does it seem to be harder for women to control their bladders? by RandomKidIsMe
There are almost certainly differences in behaviour like what you’re describing that are just down to biological differences. However, you need to be really careful analysing that sort of thing, because culture and societal norms play a massive role in moulding behaviour, and completely drown out the biological differences.
By way of example, you get a lot of US-based people arguing that men are just better at STEM topics than women, but my university (in Portugal) didn’t really match that at all. Overall there were more males than females, but the difference wasn’t anywhere near as big as in the US.
Then you could really see the cultural effects and biases at the department level — maths and physics departments were pretty balanced between genders (both in terms of students and lecturers), electrotechnical engineering and mechanical engineering were almost completely male-dominated, while chemistry and chemical engineering were female-dominated. Biomedical engineering and architecture were female-heavy, but to a much smaller extent.
Czl2 t1_iy1jgw1 wrote
> culture and societal norms play a massive role in moulding behaviour, and completely drown out the biological differences.
See:
Do you disbelieve these statistics?
Could this be "Objective Example #3" that it is NOT true that "culture and societal norms play a massive role in moulding behaviour, and completely drown out the biological differences"?
Replace your word completely with say 50-60% and we would be closer to agreement about the situation today.
What about the future?
Men and women continue to gain ever greater control over their bodies via technology. We already see the impact birth control technology has. Now imagine technology to control your own "dimorphic temperament" (ie behavioral differences between men and women) or technology to genuinely change your sex or even migrate between bodies as you might switch cars today.
In such a future clearly "culture and societal norms play a massive role in moulding behaviour" because the "biological differences" that exist today will start to cease to exist. I think few can imagine how interesting that future might be much like African nomads from thousands of years ago could not imagine our reality today.
Czl2 t1_ixyadke wrote
I agree with you perhaps ~80%
Since I enjoy provoking people to think I will make some remarks about what you said to see how you react to them.
> However, you need to be really careful analysing that sort of thing,
/r/ExplainLikeImFive is for those who want a simplified analysis, is it not?
What is the context for this conversation?
> because culture and societal norms play a massive role in moulding behaviour, and completely drown out the biological differences.
What place on planet earth are you describing?
The biological differences that I listed are: “hassle with peeing, monthly mensuration, risk of pregnancy, actual pregnancy, giving birth, breast feeding, menopause”, also “physically smaller and weaker sex”, and “living longer”
Surely these biological differences exist in Portugal do they not? Did you really mean to say that ‘culture and societal norms … completely drown out the biological differences’? You strike as a smart person. Surely you are exaggerating or meant something else by your words. People often believe to be true what they prefer to be true. Perhaps what you wrote is what you prefer to be true (even if it is not true)? That I can understand. I would also prefer what you wrote to be true.
> By way of example, you get a lot of US-based people arguing that men are just better at STEM topics than women, but my university (in Portugal) didn’t really match that at all. Overall there were more males than females, but the difference wasn’t anywhere near as big as in the US.
“By way of example, most will argue that women are just better at wearing skirts than men, but opinion in my Irish town (where kilts are popular) doesn’t really match that at all.”
The academic preference examples you shared depend on subjective judgement much like what clothes you pick and how others judge you for it. What I am trying to show with my imperfect example above is that what culture is and what people argue is somewhat arbitrary and varies from place to place. I prefer objective examples and will share two objective examples below for you to think about.
First a fact about men vs women: the difference on average is tiny. Most men and women are close to average and there isn’t much difference between them and you can find plenty of examples with one or the other being better at X or taller, thinner, smaller... That said the tiny difference in the averages however makes a huge difference in the tails of the distribution. Shift a normal distribution by a tiny amount and compare the area under the curve above a high threshold before and after your shift. Ever try that? What happens? You see this difference in the tails in many places.
Objective Example #1: On average the best men are objectively far better then the best women at most (but not all) physical activities such as sports. Would you apply your “culture and societal norms play a massive role in moulding behaviour, and completely drown out the biological differences” explanation to physical sports? What do you predict would happen if gender specific competitions were merged? Do you think gender specific competition is due to left over sexism? Likely not.
Objective Example #2: The other place I see large men vs women gap is in the videos of people doing dumb stuff. You can see such videos all over the internet and /r/whatcouldgowrong collects them. They show the riskiest of the risky, most dangerous of the dangerous. the dumbest of the dumb. Men dominate in these video clips. Here too do you think ‘culture and societal norms … completely drown out the biological differences’? Are men doing dangerous, risky, dumb stuff around the world due to culture? Do you think their mothers teach them that culture? Do you think their wives and sisters promote that culture? Where does that culture come from? What does that tell you about men?
What is your “really careful analysis” of these two examples?
EDIT: Spelling.
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