PckMan t1_j231hxg wrote
These huge batteries are made of smaller batteries. Making them modular would make them heavier, bulkier, and possibly more dangerous since at any one point someone could tamper with them and do something wrong and cause a huge fire risk, whereas sealed batteries can have more compact wiring and are considered bad and in need of replacement if there's any damage to them. That might seem wasteful but the fire hazard is big.
wombatlegs t1_j2405w4 wrote
smaller batteries? Do you mean cells?
moresmallerbear t1_j24z3mi wrote
all of the EVs I know of are batteries made of batteries. The individual modules are multiple cells, those are then stacked together.
BathFullOfDucks t1_j256stx wrote
Tesla batteries are literally just a lot of Panasonic 18650 batteries (ie, the lithium aa) wired together. They're not modular because it's a mess.
DragoonXNucleon t1_j240gjc wrote
I don't buy it. Car companies don't want it to be modular because it doesn't benefit them. In Asia they have grab and go batteries in motorbikes all the time.
Why would Tesla or Toyota want to cooperate and build a modular battery so that a competitor could sell a battery for your car. They don't want duracell in the game.
Government could fix this, but won't because captured capitalism.
photogypsy t1_j244nja wrote
E motorcycles are not even in the same planet for weight and size comparison. Also voltage. EV car batteries hold huge amounts of voltage (exponentially more than an electric motorcycle battery) and something as simple as mishandling could lead to deadly results while doing something as routine as swapping out the packs. Plus architecture. Batteries aren’t under the hood; they’re in the floor pan. There are lots of reasons. Formula E racing doesn’t use modular batteries; they swap the driver over to a new car when they pit. If modular batteries were feasible; they’d be doing it already.
PckMan t1_j243t4c wrote
Grab and go batteries for what exactly? Lead acid batteries for gasoline powered motorcycles or batteries meant for electric scooters and mopeds?
For starters when I saw modular batteries I mean batteries in which you can swap out individual cells as the original post suggests, not whole batteries you can swap in and out of a vehicle. Secondly though car makers could standardise batteries between them this would severely limit them in many ways. We like to think of batteries as the equivalent of a gas tank in an internal combustion car but that's not exactly the case. Yes batteries store an amount of power inside but the role of the fuel pump is also up to the battery, that is the rate at which it can charge or discharge has to do with the battery. Moreover the weight and shape of the battery changes from manufacturer to manufacturer and in many cases the battery housing serves as a structural member. This means that not only the capacity and therefore range are determined by the battery but also the charging times, power output, vehicle handling and weight distribution and chassis construction. So if you limited manufacturers on using a specific set of batteries, they'd all basically have to make the same cars, just with different looks. Two cars using the same battery but different electric motors would still have the same maximum power output at the wheels which is limited by the battery, a stronger motor wouldn't be able to draw power at a faster rate to output more power to the wheels.
Admirable_Remove6824 t1_j250nt4 wrote
They do have electric bikes with standard batteries. They do have battery swap locations. If they aren’t the same brand then they must have a standard type they use. Like a propane gas tank swap place. I’m sure it would be hard right now to standardize car batteries because the technology is changing relatively quickly. The biggest issue is not having “right to fix” laws in the US. Companies are allowed to continue to make money off of cars, tractors and other products after you buy and own them. They keep a monopoly and if anything this slow technology advancements with proprietary rights. When car companies first started making cars there biggest advantage was aftermarket opportunities. Now if you buy a Tesla or such you can’t modify or repair without permission from them. Monopoly’s delay progress. We might be flying electric cars but now without oil monopoly’s!!
jontss t1_j243ran wrote
There are multiple YouTube videos of people fixing battery packs for free or nearly free where the dealers insisted the whole thing needs replacing. In one case it was just a dirty connecting plate.
But this applies to most car repairs. $3 microswitch on the lock assembly failed? Sorry, you need a $300 lock assembly. Oh your turn signals stopped working because of some oxidation on the column contacts? Well we could spray 20¢ of contact cleaner on it but instead we want $1000 to replace the stalk assembly.
Could go on and on.
danielszajkowski t1_j248o2h wrote
There are multiple reasons why you can only buy things as assemblies.
Including having few parts to keep in stock. And some of these parts are not designed to be taken apart. Plus the labour to change the failed part of the assembly can be cost more then then new assembly. Assemblies are designed to reduce the overall cost. Especially with parts the rarely fail.
And as for you oxidation example. If you would take apart the column, clean the switch contacts. Charge the customer.
Now a week or year goes by, and the switch doesn’t work again. Either the contacts are still corroded or a spring broke inside. The customer would expect this to be covered. But since you didn’t replace any parts, there is no warranty. So either the tech or the shop does it for free. Or you loose a customer because they pay for the “same repair” again.
But if you replaced the switch, the odds of it failing again within the warranty period are much lower, because every component is new. And if something does go wrong, both the parts and labour are covered.
Now if you DIY, and don’t value your time. Then go ahead go for it.
Or if it’s an older vehicle and parts are discontinued, it may make sense to try and repair the part.
jontss t1_j263lz1 wrote
The labor for the column was near zero. Spray WD40 in the column. Fixed for another hundred thousand km.
The switch replacement was literally remove the assembly, unbolt the switch, bolt a new one on. About 5 minutes of extra labor vs replacing with a new one. No way that adds up to $300.
danielszajkowski t1_j26o5lp wrote
WD40 is not a contact cleaner.
Diagnosing a problem at a shop is usually at minimum 1hr. Currently the shop rates are about $150/h
Book time on replacing the switch would vary from each make and model. But I would expect it to be no less then 1.0h
Then to take apart the switch, inspect what is wrong. Repair the corrosion. (Which is more then just spraying “wd40”). Test the switch. Verify the repair. Reassemble. Document the repair. I would expect 1.5-2.0 hours.
So your probably just about 4 hours, which is $600 plus taxes. With no one covering any warranty.
There is no way a licensed tech is doing that, if they can just replace the assembly. And have the repair covered for parts and labour.
jontss t1_j26uarv wrote
Fair. It worked.
I'll take my $3 worth of repairs over $600 any day (that didn't include labor btw). But you do you.
purduephotog t1_j24bm2f wrote
>Government could fix this, but won't because captured capitalism.
This was a sarcastic post, right?
Have you seen the size of these batteries? Have you heard the precautions or watched how they're disassembled?
They're 480V. That's a terrifying voltage, nearly insta-death.
They're massive modules with loads of balance wires.
The 'gubberment' doesn't need to do anything- anyone can build a battery to fit there if there is an advantage for it.
This isn't a gas tank pressed between two plates, or a 'chopper' show where they beat some aluminum and weld it to hold gasoline.
This is a massive piece of critical engineering with extremely fatal consequences.
Frack, Boeing stuffed something in their planes and they caught fire because they didn't do it right.
FuzzyCrocks t1_j24ixyc wrote
Okay if it's not a battery then it is just a cell.
dragonbrg95 t1_j24uzl8 wrote
Making the batteries smaller individual containers would absolutely add a lot of weight which is already a massive problem for EVs. One large battery pack acts as a structural component so breaking it up not only means adding additional weight for the additional casings, it also means eliminating battery capacity and also adding brackets to structurally attach them to each other (which is both heavier and weaker than one large casing).
This is also an odd thing to nitpick. Battery cells themselves are modular and different manufacturers are using like cells depending on the origin of those lithium cells. This is not unlike battery packs in things like power tools, those battery packs are just containers around cells like this: https://www.samsungsdi.com/lithium-ion-battery/power-devices/power-tool.html
These 3.6 or 3.7 volt cells are more or less the same across all brands (Dewalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, etc) and if you wanted to you could open those batteries and replace cells. Similarly, people can and do open up EV battery packs to replace battery cells. So long as you k ow what you are doing when you rewire them and don't kill yourself touching a large capacitor they are repairable and replaceable components.
Are you just as upset that you can't for example, swap brake pads between cars? Or intake manifolds? Or that there are a million variations of a spark plug?
toughduck53 t1_j24w7y7 wrote
EV batteries are genuinely terrifying, even experienced industrial electricians get nervous working on them. Not only do you have the insane power potential that could easily kill, but if something does go wrong you have a fire that burns incredibly hot for days that's near impossible to put out.
This is not a government, issue. Yes they're are problems with capitalism but you need to stop blaming all your issues on it. This has nothing to do with greedy corporations, this is actually a real issue with safety.
DragoonXNucleon t1_j25xw47 wrote
The government mandates a shit ton of things around gas tanks. They have to be located in a certain way, protected, vented, all sorts of things to ensure that your car isn't a literal bomb... as it used to be before regulations. Just like seat belts were fought by the industry for years.
Yet, with electric, "ehhhh do what you want."
toughduck53 t1_j25z2k7 wrote
I promise you its not "do what you want" lmao. There's just as many regulations around battery manufacturing.
PeteA84 t1_j2443nf wrote
To combat waste that'll probably be what happens pretty soon. Currently each manufacturer is racing to make the battery with the largest range at the cheapest cost to get ahead in the market. Once we reach an inflexion point (my guess is 2025) then maintenance will be something customers really focus on.
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments