Tube Amp users: how do they differ from Solid State?

Submitted by GarlicBiscuits t3_1197glx in headphones

I've been doing a lot of searching out of curiosity for potential amps/DACs that I could incorporate into an eventual endgame setup. I've heard that tube amps are especially good for powering higher impedance, high-end headphones like the HD 800S, but not so much for planars unless you shell out extra money for a transformer-coupled one. If I end up buying balanced XLR cables and adapters for my current and future headphones, it could be a route I'd want to go down (though quite expensive). However, I'm still not sure what makes this different from really good solid-state amps, more specifically with how they handle the sound. Any experiences and knowledge would be much appreciated!

18

Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

SchiitMjolnir2 t1_j9kz1r1 wrote

Some tube amps (regardless of whether they're OTL or OPT or hybrid) sound indistinguishable from solid state while some have coloration / different timbre (not necessarily tonality or FR in the mids but through harmonic distortion) and the area where the difference is observed the most is in the upper to mid-bass (due to output impedance)

16

maXXXjacker t1_j9l8c2u wrote

Basically this. In the most basic way I can describe it, I found the biggest changes in sound came from what tubes I rolled. Some sound like shit, some laid back, some no different than a good clean solid state. In the end, it was fun rolling but after blowing through a dozen or more tubes only to find out I liked tubes that were just a really good solid state sound... it was a huge waste of money, I could have just scooped up a really nice SS amp and have been done with it rather than the hundreds of dollars in tubes I wasted my money on including the amps.

13

GarlicBiscuits OP t1_j9l1o25 wrote

Which tube amps tend to lean more towards the colored end? I've looked through plenty of threads with people talking about them, but there was too much headphone jumbo for me to personally understand how certain tube amps sound.

3

SchiitMjolnir2 t1_j9l6zh3 wrote

It's a good rule that that the more components after the input tube stage (e.g. 300 B tube SET amps), the more colored it sounds because, transformers and capacitors will have their own distortion characteristics that will affect the timbre of the mids. Some OTL tubes are more "solid state" sounding such as the Schiit Valhalla 2 because it does not have output transformer and the capacitor plus the tube used have more "linear" tonality/signature than others. Other OTL amp such as Feliks Audio Euphoria have a power tube that has distortion characteristics that affects the timbre of the mids so not all OTL will sound solid state-y

6

blargh4 t1_j9l8ywz wrote

don't know how reliable of a rule of thumb that is - a complex amp with
plenty of feedback will likely have much less distortion than a dead-simple tube amp that does not employ feedback at all.

7

SchiitMjolnir2 t1_j9lazr1 wrote

SS discrete amps are designed to avoid capacitors in the signal path, lots of feedback to minimize distortion (see Schiit's topology with the Magni+: "Topology: Fully discrete, fully complementary all-bipolar, symmetrical current-feedback design with driver stage and Vbe multiplier, no capacitors in the signal path and DC servo") while tubes are the opposite. OTL tube amps have capacitors in the signal path (except for Schiit Folkvangr) which imparts its own distortion characteristics to the sound

5

PassiveAgressiveCan t1_j9l525f wrote

I’m going back to solid state. The beauty of tubes for me was always the glowing lights and the novelty of it. But with my current layout I need something that doesn’t get hot that can hide under my shelf on my desk. In a roundabout answer, I don’t think they matter that much (all of my daily headphones are high impedance Sennheisers) as I can’t really hear much of a difference. I also certainly don’t have golden ears so that’s just my take on it. If you think they look cool go for it, if you want it for sound change try to demo it first.

15

GarlicBiscuits OP t1_j9l7gpa wrote

I doubt my ears are completely golden as well. I'll see if I have the opportunity to demo them, but if not, I'll look into solid state combos that would be able to drive any headphone I own well.

7

PassiveAgressiveCan t1_j9l8dt3 wrote

If you dont mind buying used you may get lucky and be able to try a tube amp for low risk and sell it again for the same price, assuming demoing equipment local isnt possible. Otherwise, I dont notice a huge difference.

5

rajmahid t1_j9ppled wrote

Just think of all that harmonic distortion you’ll be missing.

2

brucie_me t1_ja06b36 wrote

They looooooooove it. So warm and fuzzy...hahaha

3

blargh4 t1_j9l3pte wrote

Tube amps have far higher harmonic/intermodulation distortion, which tends to rise steadily with output level (whereas solid state amps are typically very clean until they clip); and they usually have more frequency response distortion. And a little bit of distortion has been known to sound pleasant.

People often make claims about how tubes have more even-order harmonic distortion (which is supposedly more euphonic to the ear) than transistors, but that seems to be BS, tube amps are all over the place here. In the end I'm not sure how useful verbal descriptions of sound will be without actually listening to them.

9

GarlicBiscuits OP t1_j9l4erz wrote

At some point, I'll have to see if I can find any headphone shops around that allow me to test various pairs and amps together. It definitely sounds like a safer bet to have some in-person exposure for comparison than just jumping in blind and hoping I've stumbled into diamonds.

2

thehornedone t1_j9l7js4 wrote

If you have a DAW program on your computer like garage band or logic, try loading in a song you're familiar with and then put an exciter VST on the track, and dial in like 1-5% tube emulation

1

GarlicBiscuits OP t1_j9l8g0v wrote

I usually play any music I have from Foobar, so I can look for options and/or plugins that do what you mentioned. I didn't even know that existed until now!

1

thehornedone t1_j9l914x wrote

There’s some very advanced vsts out there for music production in terms of introducing tube emulation, tape, triode, whatever. I’d say 99% of modern mixes that are produced in the digital realm use these. If you’re using a colorful tube amp, you’re just introducing even more distortion to the mix before it makes it to your ears.

2

GarlicBiscuits OP t1_j9lw8c5 wrote

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and contributions here. They seriously help me out a ton! For a while before today, I was also considering potential Topping and Schiit combos for solid state, and I might end up choosing those since I'm leaning more towards accurate representations of what I listen to (I'm still surprised how complex and interesting tubes are though). The Topping L50 and E50 combo seems like a promising one, so I'll keep that on my radar for now and see what happens in the future. :)

5

KingBasten t1_j9nkob9 wrote

As a former tube amp owner, yeah. I would really recommend just going with a good basic solid state, and forget about tube amps. But that's just my 2c.

5

vincentcarguy t1_j9nud64 wrote

My tube amp setup has smoother, cleaner sound with bit better sounding vocals (more organic/live sounding) and a more expansive/3D sounding space and bit better separation for the music. The tube used really determines how it sounds... some tubes are extremely clean with maximum etheral 3D sounding space and maximum separation (like a Cifte 12AU7) while others are warmer more bassy focused with not much separation or 3D presentation and a bit of noise (like a Mullard 6201). Solid state is punchier, tighter with a more energetic sounding low end - but it sounds overall less separated/flatter in presentation. Prefer listening to tube amp without question... that certain special spacial sense & added separation along with that more 'live' vocal sound you get with right tube setup just doesn't exist with any SS amp I've heard... even a SR-L700/SR-L300 LE STAX with custom SS based amp setup (which has a pretty nice 3D separation & tracking/panning feel.)

Running RME ADI-2 DAC with Schiit Lokius EQ to a Garage 1217 Project Ember II amp w/ Sovtek 6H30P-EB preamp tube. Headphone is a modded Denon AH-D5200. Solid-state amp is a Garage 1217 Project Polaris.

5

Professional-Swim-69 t1_j9ome5m wrote

Nice setup, you got both the Ember and Polaris, I've been planning on the Polaris myself.

1

vincentcarguy t1_j9q282u wrote

Coming from Fostex/Denon biodyna's being my headphones of choice I went on a bit of an amp journey to find a great pairing for them and the Ember & Polaris is where I've ended and am fully satisfied with no need for searching out any other amps. Meier Corda JAZZ-ff and modded Gustard H10 were the previous amps. The Polaris is bit better all around than and less than half the size of an H10...absolutey lovely low end/subbase presence with little more forward mids/vocals. The JAZ-ff was not a good pairing at all for biodyna's...low end lacked presence and didn't sound lively, had a more flat & cold presentation.

Very much satisfied with the Garage 1217 amps - if you want a warm & lively sound from a biodyna driver they are a great way to go. The Ember II with either a Reflector 6H23P-EB or Sovtek 6H30P-EB tube is setup I like best overall for pairing with a biodyna, when I really want that ultimate subbass presentation and lively/punchy experience (at some expense of instrument separation, 3D spacial presence, and vocal presentation) I like running the Polaris. Both pair well with Sennheiser HD6XX series and the more lively sounding planar magnetics, like a Gold Planar GL2000 or certain HiFiMans, as well.

2

Professional-Swim-69 t1_j9qadgo wrote

Thank you for sharing the details, I was about to ask solderdude about the Polaris matching with Noire, probably not as good.

1

o7_brother t1_j9l6m3j wrote

Some may have high distortion.

Some may have have high output impedance.

These things may cause audible changes (emphasis on: they may also not).

4

fewell8 t1_j9l98v7 wrote

Tubes add distortion. But it's the kind that sounds good.

4

mqtpqt t1_j9lwfz8 wrote

depending on topology, but it boils down to output impedance, 2nd order harmonic distortion, or a combination of both.

p.s: from what I've tried, the higher you go, the less "tubey" tube amps sound; they sound less stereotypical warm and more solid-state like. Common misconception about tubes is that they can sound slow, which is not the case at all.

If you are interested in getting a more tube-y sound, WA22 might be an option. Totally depends on your headphones tho

3

GarlicBiscuits OP t1_j9lxhl7 wrote

The WA2 and WA22 were the tube options I narrowed my searches down to initially, but I'm having second thoughts. They're not off entirely the table and look quite nice, but it's also a steep price tag for a result that might have too little a difference (at least for me) for too much. My personal endgame headphone-wise would probably be the Hifiman Anandas and HD 800S for planar and dynamic respectively, but it appears solid states show quality enough results to guarantee a sound I'd be satisfied with.

3

minimus67 t1_j9mrkq9 wrote

I’ve owned very good tube amps, including an Apex Teton, and very good solid state amps, like the Luxman P1-u.

I’ve been in this hobby for 18 years. My favorite setup out of maybe a dozen I’ve owned is the Apex Teton, an OTL tube amp built by Pete Millett, feeding the HD800. With the “right tubes”, that combo is both highly detailed and really emotionally involving - better than even the best Stax setups I’ve heard. In comparison, solid state is capable of providing jaw-dropping detail but a less involving listening experience.

But not all tube amps sound that good. They also are more prone to breaking down because they run hot. You also can go down an expensive rabbit hole of tube rolling (buying expensive tubes and seeing how they affect the sound signature of your setup.) And I personally feel that OTL amps as a general rule sound better than transformer-coupled tube amps, and OTL amps limit your headphone options. Solid state amps in comparison are trouble-free.

Unless you have a sizable budget, I’d stick with solid state and remember that the biggest determinant of sound quality is the pair of headphones you own, not your amp.

3

GarlicBiscuits OP t1_j9mv3ed wrote

Well put, I respect your dedication and ability to experiment overall. If I go solid state, I'll make sure to find a combo that has plenty of options to satisfy all the cable types I'd amass over the future. I imagine by the time I'm closer to done, I'll be needing 4-pin XLR, 4.4mm balanced, and 6.35mm ports (with adapter from 3.5mm), so the amp part of that combo having all of those would be greatly convenient in the long run.

2

[deleted] t1_j9kz2f8 wrote

Tube amps CAN produce audible distortion. This can sound good, or bad, depending on who you ask. Clean tube amps, which do not produce any audible distortion do also exist btw.

Tube amps CAN also boost the bass response of variable impedance headphones, by a couple of dB. This has NOTHING to do with them using tubes, but with them usually having high output impedance. A solid state amp with a high output impedance can achieve the same bass bost and so can parametric EQ.

In my opinion tube amps are nice to look at but ultimately pointless. Generating distortion has nothing to do with high fidelity, and tuning a headphone is better done via EQ.

2

adeadcrab t1_j9l12h5 wrote

Why is tuning a headphone with software EQ better?

1

[deleted] t1_j9l1l8t wrote

Because you have literally infinite options as opposed to a couple of dB extra in the bass?

0

GarlicBiscuits OP t1_j9l2kca wrote

That's all good to know, thanks for the info! I'll make sure to look into solid state options and see what might be ideal for me in case I do that instead. I might not want to go overboard for something that has a very small/subtle difference with much higher cost.

1

LeEasy t1_j9l997n wrote

Most of the cheap tube amps are just op amps with tube for show. It cringes me so much when ppl praise those $100 tUbE amp for having “tube sound”. And tube sound are just distortions created by introducing tubes into the circuitry.

2

Codename3Lue t1_j9ludbf wrote

When you find a tube amp you like, its just gooey. Kinda softens the harshness out of things. Objectively solid states are better and on the cheaper end much better. I listen out of my solid state 99% of the time but every so often I want to listen to the tubes

2

szakee t1_j9l0w9h wrote

there's hundreds of articles/vids out there describing the difference.

1

Taraxian t1_j9l8y01 wrote

You can simulate a tube amp in software using VST plugins

1

PutPineappleOnPizza t1_j9nupc9 wrote

It's a mixed bag and basically like playing a lottery once you start buying vintage tubes. I personally achieved sound that is slightly softer, but it's still very close to solid state, but with more bass, basically.

A tube amp is a cool thing to own, but it's far from necessary.

1

cagdas t1_j9lkoxh wrote

I love tube amps while playing my guitars. That sweet breakup when you dial them to a certain volume makes my day. But for playback, I would never go for tube amps. I want to play music as they were recorded and mastered.

0