Submitted by halfercode t3_11b4wsg in headphones

I am a newcomer/lurker to the sub, with a mildly amusing tale to relate. I've been through a couple of £150 headphones in my time, generally used with a laptop and without a DAC, and they've been pretty good. I'm now in the market for something much more serious. Names below have been omitted to protect the guilty.

Shop One

A few weeks ago I popped into a UK audio store with around 20 headphones to try. It's a very small space, and it's clear they get most of their sales from the internet. The staff are amenable enough, but don't have much time to chat, since they are on the telephone most of the day. I tried a ridiculously expensive electrostatic system (cans, DAC/energiser) and was very impressed. Anyway, some days later we entered into email chat, and they recommended I try some other headphones (list of 14) and a few DAC/amps (3 or 4 to try).

So I turn up for my two-hour demo slot, and it was mostly a good experience. A few of the cans on their list were actually out of stock and not available to try, and it seemed that because I expressed a disliking for MQA, they could only make one DAC/amp available (a Audiolab M-DAC+). I tried some Hifimans, some Sennheisers, some Focals, and one Grado. All were good - and once I tried the planar-magnetic Anandas, I preferred their warm sound presentation over the more clinical electrostatics (costing three times the price). The Focals were great too.

So far so good. We then got to arranging a demo slot to narrow down the choices. They quibbled about whether I could bring a friend along, and I wondered if they'd judged that I had already taken up too much of their time. Perhaps demo slots don't give them a return on their investment, even though it probably cost them all of ten minutes chat and set-up time. Or perhaps they think I'm a time-waster with no intention to buy - who knows?

Shop Two

Anyway, I proposed a new time via email, and no reply came. Assuming that I'd been regarded as not worth the effort, I decided to try another company, again with the genuine intention of buying from the demo store. And here it was that I found my dream system: Audeze LCD-2 LCD-2C cans, a Chord Mojo 2 DAC, and one of those ugly hunk-of-steel amps (presumably they lack aesthetics to illustrate how great they sound). And my goodness, the music from my USB sound-source came alive. The richness, the detail, the warmth of the sound - jaw-droppingly brilliant. And all within budget too.

But... the seller/owner was the meanest, rudest, sweatiest, most condescending, most caustic, and most objectionable salesperson I have ever had the misfortune to meet in my several decades on this planet. He had a face like a slapped arse, and a personality to match it perfectly. In our initial telephone call he set out his stall in terms of "how he does business" and that he doesn't "entertain" sales email conversations. It was clear he thought I was an idiot with too much money, and that Shop One's demo choices were nonsensical and amateurish. On the demo day, he dismissed my prior equipment as "shitty", and even though I said I'd liked the M-DAC+, it was a "shit" piece of equipment "for Richer Sounds customers" [a mid-price audio/visual brand in the UK]. It is hard to overstate how infuriating, intimidating, patronising, and humourless I found the whole experience. The seller stopping to ostentatiously adjust his balls through his trousers, as he shuffled and coughed his way around the shop, was perhaps the icing on the toxic cake.

It had been made clear to me that I only needed to try three headphones, and perhaps in narrow terms this unpleasant oaf was right. I made my escape after about an hour when another customer came in - I thanked him for letting me try some kit, and given that it felt like the conversation had come to a natural close, I was able to deftly leave the store without making any remarks about purchasing.

Prior to leaving, I clearly overheard another customer getting a dressing-down on the telephone. Yet despite this pattern of behaviour, this (ahem) gentleman store owner has a successful business selling a lot of pricey, high-end kit, with some years of (mostly excellent) online reviews.

Anyway, Sluggish Shop One did eventually get back to me after a week by email, suggesting a new demo day in another week's time. Foolishly I had committed to buying the mid-range DAC/amp, but now Sweaty Shop Two had told me how awful it was, I wonder if I have inadvertently boxed myself into something that just won't sound as good as the Dream System. I can't in good conscience buy from Ball Scratcher, even if his other customers seemingly don't mind his demeanour. Oddly I think I would feel bad if I just ordered Dream System from the internet, since I genuinely don't like it when people do that to save a bob or two. Plus, while my amp/DAC choices in Sluggish Shop One seem to be excessively limited, I'd also feel bad if I don't buy something from them either. Ho hum!

If I have a question to bookend my sorry story, it would be: is this what audio shopping is like? How can a customer demonstrate they're a serious buyer, and how can they try a solid range without "wasting the time" of the shop? 😛 Is it less frustrating to buy stuff from the internet without even trying it first?

Update: Shop Three

My "British" worry about letting down the first shop may have been unfounded - I asked them if they could supply Audeze and/or RME products, they said they could not stock them, and I thanked them for their time and said I'd try to use them again. I suspect I misinterpreted efficient speech as the opinion that I'd taken up too much of their time.

I found a supplier of RME products online, and shortly will take possession of an ex-demo ADI-2 DAC FS (version 1). I've not tried it, but it scores well in distortion tests, and has plenty of EQ functions to play with (this may be handy if my future cans need it).

I have also found a friendly shop that wants to show off some ex-demo Focal and Audeze cans - and I suspect unless I find them very heavy, I will just get the Audeze. It's taken some five weeks to get to this point - way more complicated than I expected - but I feel like I am nearly there...

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[deleted] t1_j9vz5ki wrote

You can find shitty salespeople everywhere.

When I was 22 my mate and I went into a Benz dealership and started looking at the E class in the showroom. The salesperson redirected us towards the used cars in the backlot, as "[...] an A class makes for a better 'starter car'".

In one Hi-Fi store they mockingly asked me whether I was at the right place, when I took out my phone and an aux cord to use as a source for the provided amplifier. I just did a 180 and left.

Heck, when I wanted to eat at a fancy restaurant once, they didn't believe me that I made the reservation. Ok, sure, neither me nor my mates wore a suit and tie, but still that ain't how you treat a customer. Suffice it to say, we took our business elsewhere.

Sometimes you just get unlucky.

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StarWarder t1_j9w5dkp wrote

Stuff like this kind of reminds me of CanJam NY 2022. I was at the Sendy table (or a vendor that was representing Sendy indirectly) and I noticed that the pads were installed literally backwards. I pointed this out and the same guy who is literally selling multi thousand dollar amps (I think they were Cayins) claiming that there is an audible difference between this amp and other amps then said “well if we’re going to get picky about the pads….”

Pads are like half the tuning of a headphone. Unbelievable to hear bullshit snake oil come out of the vendor one second and the next tell me I’m anal for wanting the asymmetrical pads in the correct orientation. Shit like this is why audiophiles get a bad rap.

The nicest people at CanJam were definitely Meze. They just seemed happy to be there and they helped everyone else

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halfercode OP t1_j9w0c1t wrote

You're probably right, though I've had a couple of friends smirk at my tale, and explain the insulting onslaught as "typical hi-fi nerd behaviour". I mean, I aspire to hi-fi nerdism myself, even if I don't yet have the purchasing history to prove it...

Maybe I should just find a third shop!

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[deleted] t1_j9w1qj7 wrote

You should try another shop. I've had some great experiences in HiFi stores and I always recommend them to anyone looking to drop money on audio because of that. Support local businesses and all that jazz.

If you believe that you need a "purchasing history" to prove that you are a Hi-Fi nerd, you are wrong.

I think people, pressured by the constant fear of missing out and bombarded by posts from others, who are high on new toy syndrome, have forgotten that it used to be about the music and not about how empty your wallet is.

Nothing wrong with dropping PHAT stacks of cash on your ideal setup. But the moment you stop listening to music and start listening to gear instead, something went wrong, I think.

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halfercode OP t1_j9w2jww wrote

100% agreed. I tend to be a cautious spender anyway, and once I have my cans/amp bought and installed, I expect I'll be too busy with rediscovering my record collection to bother about FOMO!

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Alternative-Farmer98 t1_j9zwrxf wrote

This reminds me of the episode of The wire where the kids from the street try to eat at a fancy restaurant

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andysaurus_rex t1_j9wbth5 wrote

So a few things of note.

  1. This is undoubtedly the most British post and dilemma I've ever come across, well done.

  2. ballscratcher did ultimately sell you on a product quickly and effectively while the first shop took a long time to get back to you and seemed to act as if you were wasting their time. If you don't like interacting with people you may not find agreeable, you should just shop online. No hard feelings and just make sure you have a good return policy from whoever you purchase from. But since you're already here I would go back to Mr. Ballscratcher and make the purchase that you preferred the best.

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halfercode OP t1_j9wdg5r wrote

Ha ha - your post did make me giggle! Etiquette and civility probably are excessively valued in British culture, but I wonder if it is an ingrained expectation that I would struggle to psychologically escape from.

I did think about ignoring my dented pride and going cap-in-hand to Ball Scratcher, but it would take a lot of swallowing (the pride, not the balls).

🍒

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andysaurus_rex t1_j9wdt6a wrote

Yeah or you could just buy them online and like he would never know and it would never come up again in your lifetime. Either way.

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wagninger t1_j9w54wo wrote

Yeah, one shop where I already borrowed 2 headphones and bought one of them comes to mind… the owner simultaneously told me how awesome a certain headphone was and how he would absolutely not recommend that I buy it, and how much he dislikes the one that I have.

Okay, bought that headphone somewhere else, for much cheaper at that.

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halfercode OP t1_ja06vvi wrote

> told me ... how much he dislikes the [headphone] that I have.

I just don't understand why a salesperson would do that. Sometimes the art of selling is knowing when not to speak!

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wagninger t1_ja37ukk wrote

yeah... we have such a poor selection of stuff here, and seemingly only one shop each in the 3 countries around me that don't require me to pay customs with a decent selection, that I'm forced to become my own shop as a side hustle.

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niubishuaige t1_j9whtb9 wrote

Lol sorry you had this experience but it is a bit funny. I'm getting a confused, but am I correct in summing up the experience as:

  • shop one has good products, but not the ones you like best
  • shop two is run by a wanker

In that case, I think you are justified in ordering the products you really want from an online store. You made a good faith effort to reward a brick and mortar retailer and they could not offer what you want. Perhaps you could ask shop one if they are able to order Audeze and Chord products for you? I'm also confused why "because I expressed a disliking for MQA, they could only make one DAC/amp available"? That doesn't make sense to me ... what's wrong with a DAC having this capability? You are not obligated to listen to MQA files just because your DAC can decode them. You could try other DACs that store one offers.

I really want to visit store two though. The owner sounds hilarious!

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halfercode OP t1_j9xlb51 wrote

> am I correct in summing up the experience as: > > * shop one has good products, but not the ones you like best > * shop two is run by a wanker

Yep, that's exactly it. I worried too that Shop One were excessively sluggish to deal with (I appreciate not every salesperson likes extended email conversations, but it was their idea). This made me wonder if I'd been written off as a time-waster.

> Perhaps you could ask shop one if they are able to order Audeze and Chord products for you?

I might do that, to be fair. I'd still like to buy from a bricks-and-mortar shop, and I'm not fussed about price-matching or chasing down the best deal.

> You are not obligated to listen to MQA files just because your DAC can decode them.

True, but I'd read enough about MQA Limited to decide I didn't want to give them my license money. (I'm keeping this response rather short so as not to derail the general direction of the thread - I appreciate MQA is a thorny topic).

> You could try other DACs that store one offers.

Possibly, though they have essentially refused up to this point. But I may explain that the Audeze cans were the best listen so far, and that I'd be looking for the best in-budget DAC/amp stack to drive them. The sneered-at Audiolab may indeed be fine - I wonder if I should just get Sluggish Store One to buy me the Audeze cans, and then I can restart my amp/DAC search (probably on the internet).

You'd be right that I could just get Sluggish Store One to put the same system together for me (including brands they don't normally stock) but I would be in danger of remembering Ball Scratcher's injurious snarl every time I put my cans on my head. 😆

> The owner [of Sweaty Store Two] sounds hilarious!

A real treat for masochists! 🙈

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blargh4 t1_j9w06nn wrote

I avoid those places to the extent that I'm able. While I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, the majority of my experiences with AV/hifi stores have been unpleasant. back when I was in my early 20s it seemed like I invariably got pegged as a poor and treated basically like a nuisance or an idiot who's just going to waste their time, now that I look like maybe I've got some midlife crisis money to spend I usually have to deal with pushy condescending sales people trying to upsell me. unpleasant vibes all around. All those places have been closing left and right over the past couple decades and I can't say I miss em. If you're in a large city there may be some existing local community of audiophiles who are happy to demo their gear and are usually much less insufferable.

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halfercode OP t1_j9w1fko wrote

I can't find it presently, but I am reminded of a YouTube video by PS Audio, on the subject of: "are high-end hi-fi buffs actually psychopaths"? 😆

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StarWarder t1_j9w744s wrote

I have a Mojo 1. Incredible amp. One of my favorite features is the color coded volume. The fact that you know what volume you’re listening at consistently is a huge advantage vs a potentiometer/knob because that way you know that 1. You’re not turning it up over time and risking hearing damage and 2. you ensure that comparisons are volume matched.

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halfercode OP t1_j9w8haa wrote

I found the Mojo 2 to be an oddity. I mean, it formed part of a system that is the best thing my ears have ever heard, so perhaps my criticisms are unimportant...

It was, to start off with, rather plasticky. I found the coloured LED buttons to be rather gaudy, and not at all becoming in a high-end piece of kit. It's too little and lightweight, and I wondered if it would float around the desk if attached to a stiff wire. It seemed odd that a battery-powered DAC would be recommended for a non-portable system, and then I find that the audio-in is USB C, but the recharge port is micro-USB.

Perhaps it would hinge on how long the battery lasts (and whether it can be replaced when it dies in a few years time)?

I am partly wondering whether I should just get the Audeze cans that I like, and challenge Sluggish Shop One to demo a better DAC/amp stack (they don't sell any Audeze stuff themselves, as far as I know).

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StarWarder t1_j9wbljb wrote

I have to reiterate my opinion on amps/DACs which is that, to date, nobody I’m aware of has ever been able to tell the difference between two well measuring solid state chains in a blind test.

The only reason I have a Mojo instead of a cheaper portable amp is because at the time, it was the only portable amp powerful enough to run a Susvara and I live at work half the year. (Now there’s the Ifi Diablo but that thing just looks ridiculous).

It’s nice to not have to buy a whole separate setup and just place it on my desk if I need to.

In fact, its pretty cool to carry a full hifi chain with you in a Mojo. You can leave it on your desk, take it outside, take it to work, take it on vacation, etc etc.

As far as the look. The full aluminum body is pretty solid imo. And the tiny rubber feet are surprisingly grippy. But yes they did change the buttons in the Mojo 2. I complained directly to Rob Watts about that one. The Mojo 1 has beautiful glass spheres for buttons. The Mojo 2’s buttons are much less satisfying to handle.

And yes, the whole input side of the DAC is a nightmare. I think Chord knows this. When I asked about this, Rob said he had too many USB-C connectors fail on him. I think the reason is entirely because they wanted it to be backwards compatible with the Poly.

As far as the headphones- LCD2 is great. Have you tried the LCDX yet?

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halfercode OP t1_j9xmyso wrote

> As far as the headphones- LCD2 is great. Have you tried the LCDX yet?

I should clarify that it was the LCD-2 Classic (open back). I've just spotted that the LCD-2 is another headphone (and still available).

I've not tried the LCDX, but frankly I need some salesperson recovery time prior to my next boxing tournament! 🥊 😺

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halfercode OP t1_ja0ul39 wrote

> I have to reiterate my opinion on amps/DACs which is that, to date, nobody I’m aware of has ever been able to tell the difference between two well measuring solid state chains in a blind test.

Yeah, this is a good point. Well, I have gone back to Sluggish Shop One and asked them, firstly, if they want to supply the Audeze cans (they don't normally stock them). We'll see on that point. I think these would come in at around £750.

Secondly, I've said I am happy for them to supply the DAC/amp. Once the Audeze have arrived, I'll try them on the Audiolab M-DAC+, which I thought was offered at a fair price-point of £650. I know they have this on demo. This was the system that Ball Scratcher was rude about - while I personally liked it, I am thinking about alternatives.

I see this supplier also has a PS Audio Stellar DAC. This is also a general-purpose DAC/pre-amp, rather than a dedicated HP amplifier, and although it looks lush, it comes in at nearly three times the price - £1800. But it has some excellent reviews. I don't know if they have this as a demo unit, but moreover I wonder if this would start to violate your rule - is it too pricey for my purposes?

(I confess I rather admire Paul's work on YouTube, and so would be given to believe that this amp is a nice bit of kit - but I have not heard it at all).

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StarWarder t1_ja3bnac wrote

The PS Audio Stellar is infamously one of the worst DACs ever measured at ASR. It miraculously scored a SINAD of 58 which is 41dB lower than an Apple USB-C dongle which achieved 99dB at a price point of 9$. The performance is so bad, it is within human audibility in the details (or loss of details) which is really saying something.

I recommend not paying attention to price as any indicator at all about quality. In fact, I wonder if there's even a reverse correlation between price and performance in the audiophile space. For example check out the TotalDac d16. It is also one of the worst performing DACs measured at a cool 14,000$.

Meanwhile, at the time it was measured, the Topping E50 achieved a SINAD of 121dB, the 6th best measuring DAC in the database and is undoubtably one of the best performing DACs in the world. It can be purchased now for around 200$.

If you really want to get a DAC that has many features and looks fancy, get an RME ADI2. At least that DAC has built-in EQ, perfectly digitally matched volume, a remote, crossfeed, firmware updates, and more. It measures excellently and it integrated perfectly in a speaker/headphone dual use system. RME's products have been time tested for decades and are used in professional mixing and mastering studios around the world. It costs around 1000-1300$ but at least you'd know you're getting your money's worth.

Or if you really want to prioritize aesthetics and have a budget to spend, get a Schiit Ragnarok for 1500$ and it can power speakers as well as send full speaker power through the headphone jacks. Pair it with one of the best performing DACs in the world, the Schiit Modius, for 230$ and call it a day.

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halfercode OP t1_ja3rr4l wrote

Thanks StarWarder - my search-fu clearly isn't very good! 🙈 I did some research on the PS Audio Stellar, and didn't come across anything as useful. For example, I found this to be fully convincing as endorsement of this product. Here is another one, oh dear! Lesson learned here - I need to be more cautious.

I wonder if I might end up testing the patience of Sluggish Shop One - they are unlikely to stock the DAC/amps in that chart. I might see if I can give them the Audeze business and then just buy the rest of the stuff from the web. So much for my wanting to use bricks 'n mortar stores! 😬

For what it's worth, I wonder if my faith in shop demos is now rather dented, only a few weeks into my project. My audiophile ears are nothing if not unpractised, and could end up buying a cans/amp stack that spends too much money or leaves too much performance on the table. This stuff, it turns out, is rather harder than it looks.

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StarWarder t1_ja4gxiw wrote

It can be hard! Unfortunately, this hobby is filled with snake oil. There are a cadre of companies and people who claim that there is a difference in sound between something like a Chord Mojo with Chord's proprietary filter and discrete circuit output stage compared to something like a Schiit Heresy/Modi which is an op-amp based "clinical" sounding amp paired with an analytical AKM (now ESS) chip.

Well I wanted to get to the bottom of this myself so I purchased a switcher and I compared my Schiit Heresy and my Chord Mojo. I staggered the playback times from two different sources but the same track by two seconds. This is a correction for the first mistake people make when trying to conduct a test like this... they try to time the playback exactly... Well if you do that, when you initiate the switch, you're not listening to the guitar strum you just heard, you're listening to the next one... obviously. So you aren't ever comparing apples to apples. It's actually beneficial to stagger the playback slightly and examine the exact same cymbal hits, the same strums, the same reverb trails.

I took this so seriously, I had my hearing tested at an audiologist beforehand at a not insignificant cost to me (American healthcare and all). My hearing sensitivity is perfect. I can also hear up to 18kHz.

After all this, I have never heard a difference in this test or other tests and I've never heard a difference between a DCS Bartok and anything else 1/10 the price.

Solid state electronics (barring particularly terribly designed ones like the Stellar or ones with high output impedance) are all audibly identical and anyone who claims otherwise is selling snake oil... and in fact this may be 90% of audiophile stores considering their business model and collective livelihoods depend on folks believing there is a difference. Keep in mind that you can purchase a speaker cable that costs $125,000.

Now of course, if you want to get into the rabbit hole of tubes and play with harmonic distortion to get a warmer, less precise, but possibly more relaxing or pleasing sound, that's a thing a lot of people enjoy doing. But for now, I'd focus on just getting a DAC that is well measuring, useful, and one that is affordable enough to reserve your capital for the part of the system that actually matters with real, measurable, and audible differences- the headphones.

Going to go by US prices for a second but if you had purchased an LCD2 Classic for 800$ and a Stellar for 2150$, that would be a total spend of 2950$. That puts you into flagship range for headphones. And if I had 2950$ laying around, I kid you not, I would just buy a Utopia and plug that right into my 9$ Apple Lightning Dongle and sleep very well at night knowing I had better sound than all the people who bought an HD800s and a Burson Conductor or something.

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halfercode OP t1_ja7cieo wrote

Fascinating details, thank you.

> Unfortunately, this hobby is filled with snake oil. There are a cadre of companies and people who claim that there is a difference in sound...

I had been pondering about this, particularly since reading the rather harsh replies to the Stellar DAC measurements/review on ASR. I know the internet is ripe for giving people a kicking, but there some folks were suggesting that PS Audio is a deliberate scam and/or the grandfatherly image of Paul's channel on YouTube is a cynical marketing ploy to cover up products they know are inferior. I suppose I take the view that bold claims must be accompanied by bold evidence - in other words I don't like to attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by cock-up.

On the other hand, I'd like to see audio companies being willing to 'fess up when they make a boo-boo. The measurements of the Stellar were something they should have picked up themselves, but I would doubt they would have noticed that in the pre-production model and decided to ignore it. It's a rhetorical question to be sure, but how did distortion that bad end up in such a high-end product?

> And if I had 2950$ laying around, I kid you not, I would just buy a Utopia and plug that right into my 9$ Apple Lightning Dongle

I've done some digging around on the RME ADI2 FS - thanks for the steer. If I pair this with the Audeze LCD-2Cs, I'm looking at around £2K. I suppose I have the budget for the Utopia, but that leaves nothing for a DAC (though I do take onboard what you say about needing only a cheap one). My main worry about the Utopia is that I've not tried them, and demos have been such an unsatisfying affair so far (either in terms of rudeness or the sense of purchase obligation) that I am not sure how many more I can take. That said, I have discovered one very close to me, so I might do one last push before I tell all the "real stores" they've been replaced by the (much less exhausting) internet!

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StarWarder t1_ja7mxfr wrote

I agree, I don’t think most of these engineers or store owners are doing anything malicious. I think most of them really believe what they’re selling which I don’t know is better or worse lol.

Something you might consider to try to get access to more demos is go to CanJam. They have one in London this summer.

It is great fun and a bargain at what you have access to in one weekend.

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halfercode OP t1_ja8r522 wrote

Right, update! I have a demo with Shop Three, and they seem genuinely nice people. They have an LCD-X and a Clear Mg to show off, both ex-demo, and if the LCD-2C is anything to go by, I suspect I might just buy the X there and then. I've done enough messing around now. I just need to check that the warranty is still valid.

It turns out that ADI2s are hard to come by currently, but I think I can see one or two official UK dealers with a small amount of stock...

CanJam sounds great, and I am sure I'd have a lot of fun there. I'd go to talk shop though, since I hope that by the time that rolls around, I will have installed my dream stack, and it won't need adjusting for some years 😼

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StarWarder t1_ja9anw1 wrote

My take on the X is that it’s technically very adept. Moreso than the LCD2. The bass is amazing. Timbre is not as natural as a HiFiman or OG Clear mostly because of the decrease in the high mid/upper treble but a lot of people like the Audeze House Sound. The sound is massive and opaque. I don’t like delicate or whispy sound as much. The whole thing is a lot of fun to listen to.

Just make sure to get the 2021 version or later if you decide to go with an X. They tuned it better after 2021

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halfercode OP t1_ja9c5l7 wrote

> The whole thing is a lot of fun to listen to.

Ooh, this is whetting my appetite 😌

> Just make sure to get the 2021 version or later if you decide to go with an X

I'll ask about the release year, but since this is ex-demo, it could go either way - either pre or post 2021. The ex-demo unit sits at around £1.1k before open-box discount, but they have a brand new one at £1.5k - which might point to the cheaper one being the older model.

While I won't buy if I have any doubts about the sound, I suspect I won't be able to exercise much patience based on tuning 😺. But, who knows, I might prefer the Focal!

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StarWarder t1_ja9ppsa wrote

I’m confused at the pricing- something used is that much? When looking at the official Audeze distributor in the UK, https://www.audeze.co.uk/products/lcd-x , the price is 1149 brand new? There is a creator package (get that one) and the premium which comes with a balanced cable (unnecessary for the efficient-to-drive LCDX) and a case (which shouldn’t cost 550 pounds).

I would investigate why their prices are like that

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halfercode OP t1_jaa6h8a wrote

£1,499 for the new one, and £1,079 reduced to £950 for the ex-demo one.

I assume the £1.5k unit matches the one on the official site costing £1,699 (and thus it is cheaper than RRP). I agree that the case and extra cables shouldn't cost that much, but perhaps Audeze doesn't agree 😲

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StarWarder t1_jaab7b5 wrote

Ah I gotcha. That makes sense. Well good luck and have fun!

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halfercode OP t1_j9watj9 wrote

Out of curiosity, would/have you used the Mojo 1 as a DAC only, and fed the output to a headphone amplifier? This configuration in the demonstration system seemed odd to me, as the Mojos (both 1 and 2) can drive headphones directly.

I assume the analogue amp I was presented with was just regarded as being able to drive the cans better than the integrated DAC/amp.

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StarWarder t1_j9x5lsk wrote

For the vast majority of headphones, the Mojo 2 will directly power them with plenty of headroom. The Mojo 1 is slightly more powerful and will power all headphones including my Susvara, infamously the hardest to drive headphone.

In fact, an amp can only decrease the fidelity of the chain. Since the Mojo has its own full powered and digitally adjustable output stage, you should indeed just use that directly.

I could see the argument that since the Mojo 2 can’t power a Susvara or HE6 with much headroom, they’d want to put an amp in the chain in case someone walks in with one of these but still…

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lolllllolz t1_j9x2x3v wrote

If you like the midrange product as much as the high-end one i'd double check with other resources as it could be an attempt to upsell/make a sale(especially if they dont carry the product).

As for whether to shop onsite/online I'd probably base it on whether their good service and ability to get a product immediately is worth the price premium and the effort to go to the place. I feel like telling the shopkeeper upfront that you don't intend to purchase (even if you actually do) makes identifying a good shop easier as the better ones won't become pushy for you to buy or callous to you and your questions/requests

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halfercode OP t1_j9xlmka wrote

> especially if they dont carry the [Audiolab] product

They do, but only on their website. I challenged Sweaty Balls on that point, exceedingly gently, and he replied thusly (it helps if you voice the following with a mixture of anger and contempt):

> It's a shit DAC. It's not resolving. Only exceptional products are allowed in my store. I have it on my website for the likes of Richer Sounds customers.

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facts_guy2020 t1_j9y9utz wrote

Store owner or sales person is just an asshole. I wouldn't listen to a store owner who calls an item they sell in store as crap.

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halfercode OP t1_j9yinxh wrote

Gerald Ratner famously declared his company's jewellery products as "total crap", which prompted a consumer reaction that nearly brought the company to bankruptcy. It's a tough lesson, and perhaps one that Ball Scratcher could do with learning.

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TagalogON t1_j9wglsl wrote

TL;DR: Buy online and hope that the reviewers/influencers/etc. are not overselling the products. Past experiences will come in handy and help you avoid future problems.


I'm a fairly minimalist, non-argumentative, et cetera person due to poverty. And so sometimes my fashion senses are way off when I'm not at events needed for networking/socialization/et cetera. This also means I try to avoid conflict because ain't nobody got time for that.

Anyway, so I walk into this audio store to demo and buy a specific headphone, hold let me find that text, I was gonna post it in the "https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/10tibxb/the_headphone_show_cables_can_make_a_difference/" thread as like another anecdote about experiencing things differently IRL or debunking myths/marketing/et cetera.

Wait fml, that rambling of mine is like 6000+ characters long, ain't nobody got time for that too.


> Anyway, long story short, about a decade ago I was going to this store to demo and buy a hyped headphone. I had a let's just say unorthodox outfit because I basically just got out of bed, lol. > > The salesman, old guy with glasses, tucked in shirt with the belt, lol, et cetera then approaches me, looks me up and down and says what can I do for you. > > I'm like I'm here to test headphones (they got a wall of them). He tells me here, have some Grados, lol. And I'm like wtf, that's not what I wanted but ya I didn't specify anything so it was kinda expected. This man literally gives me the cheap Grado stuff and I'm not about them on-ears, we here for over-ears. > > I'm pretty conflict-averse due to poverty and so because of the immediate salesman aggressiveness that the old guy approached me with, I was just going along before obviously ya just directly testing the specific headphone I want. > > So like after a while (I was basically the only customer for the headphone section, this same salesman was watching me stand there with the headphones) he asks me what's my budget. When I start pulling out piles of green $20 bills out of my pocket, totaling half a stack or so, his whole demeanor changed. This guy then shoved an Astell & Kern DAP at me, the $1000+ ones, and I'm like wtf is this guy on about, I don't even listen to whatever rock/etc. music they have stored in the DAP, lmao. > > Eventually I was like whatever, this is clearly how other people get roped into overspending. And so I just tell him to give me a brand new set of the particular headphones everyone back then was praising. So then they start selling me cables, insurance, et cetera. And I was like fam, you see that half a stack already gone and my lazy outfit, does it look like I can spend more. > > Seriously, I saved up so much money (same to this day (as I'm still relatively poor) when it comes to audio/other hobbies) and like people be legit wanting you to overspend for no reason. Sigh. > > --- > > Fml, that was so long and specific (I cut it down from 6000+ characters, could be shorter but I wanted to have a bit more context). But I guess the point is that don't buy headphones IRL as if you don't know salesmen tactics or are easily influenced, you will get scammed by people that already have million dollar houses and so on, like rofl. > > Thankfully I grew up in Asia and helped my relatives in the wet markets (just means raw meat, vegetables, clothes, and lots of haggling) and all that jazz. And I already had previous experience with other local audio stores too. So ya, it was just funny seeing a screenplay straight out of the movies. > > My guy's whole attitude changed as soon as the money appeared. Before he just wanted me to go away (remember, appearance is extremely important as being more attractive means better opportunities), but after that, he wanted me to buy twice my budget plus an unnecessary, overkill, etc. DAP, like wtf man.


Anyway, with that random unnecessary story out of the way, just buy from Amazon UK (Amazon USA, Amazon Japan, et cetera also ships there), lol.

If you're in Europe, with Amazon UK I can usually find stuff there available to shipping for a lot of international places. There's also Amazon Germany, Thomann (German audio place), etc. that some people like to use in Europe/elsewhere. And IIRC there was also that Scandinavian/etc. site that some people used.

Wait let me add the beginning of the cut down post:

> Sometimes when I browse Head-Fi and other dedicated audio forums, people be talking about the setups or configurations they use. And then I also have some of those gear and test it. And it's like wtf, is the universe experience really that relative, different. > > Then I remember that a lot of the people there are older people that don't want to use (parametric) EQ for whatever reason. Or visit an ENT doctor or audiologist for hearing tests, ear cleanings, et cetera despite it being covered by the regional/national/etc. government if over or under a certain age. And like some of them be really do flexing for the sake of collection/prestige/etc. > > Like a lot of us got many Pokemons, KZ Pokemons (they just got a new bullet style IEM called KZ LingLong, lol), et cetera, but those folks be legit spending only $500/1000+ and nothing less. They even have them paired with the velvety watch boxes, lol. It's wild out there.


> Thankfully some of us have access to local audio retailers that carry a few of those kilobuck and so on IEMs/headphones and sometimes they're often really quiet too (barely any customers, lol) if the separate isolated booth is not available for better hearing experience. There's also the audiophile groups that often do trades, switches, tours, or demos with each other. > > And so we can kinda gauge for a while if something is worth the diminishing returns and so on. Seriously, some of the local audio stores will often let you use your own gear and so you can do whatever you want, oftentimes they will even let you stay there for hours as there's like barely any customers and like people are just chill, lmao. > > Some audio stores be legit pushy af though. But from experience those are usually the ones that have a separate speakers or home theater section.


Sigh, this reached 6000 characters again already, fml.

What I'm trying to say is that a lot of those physical (audio) stores have older salesmen that are really pushy. And so unless you have the patience to deal with that, don't bother and just buy online after demoing the products. It feels bad to do that, which is why sometimes I buy cheap products (say $20 or so for Comply foam ear tips, etc.) for their time.

I'm privileged enough to have a few places here that don't have those types of old people and so they are amazing resources if you don't want to fully blind buy based on the reviews on the internet from influencers, hype people, et cetera. This is mostly applicable to headphones and speakers btw, not so much for IEMs, but it'll different in Asia/elsewhere.

Lmao, let's put this post to the max of 10000 characters.


Thank God now we have $10 dongles (lol) that can do the job. Or $50-100 dongles (with physical volume control) if you still want more volume, Bluetooth, and so on options. Dongles can be legit overkill, no need to really spend more unless you want those extra features like the volume knob, microphone/speakers/etc. ports, et cetera.

Oh and Amazon also offers financing for certain popular (Sennheiser) headphones (legit free, no interest rates/etc.), over 5 months or 12 months, and so on. It'll depend on your account history with them though, as in you will probably get that offer if you buy a lot from Amazon and don't return as much items.

Basically barely any of us have local audio stores like e-earphones.

Everything is unfortunately pretty much a blind buy unless there's like an e-earphone (Akihabara, Tokyo) equivalent near your area: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUbeBBh2guM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GMP8cjAEq0

Some people also abuse (some people get 5/10+ IEMs/headphones all at once and demo them for 30 days, lol smh) the generous Amazon return system because we can't really test out IEMs/headphones, especially TWS earbuds as the best value are often exclusive to China/etc.

Btw, there's the October to January (some people apparently demo a lot of IEMs/headphones/etc. around this time as it's 4 months of free trial with the product, lol) extended holiday return period.

Wouldn't recommend you do that often as Amazon do ban people's accounts if they abuse it too much. Make sure you bought a lot of (expensive) stuff from Amazon if you're going to test IEMs/TWS earbuds/headphones/etc. as I heard they give more chances if you do that.


Thankfully now we also have squig.link, AutoEQ, et cetera for the more informed resources.

See here for more info about Qudelix 5K, parametric EQ, squig.link comparison graphs, AutoEQ, et cetera: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/109meb5/eq/j40cy1n/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/11ahxu1/just_picked_up_the_dt990s_250ohm_for_my_pc_sound/j9s5sht/

Look up oratory1990 (check the subreddit, /r/oratory1990, don't forget the preset parametric EQ list (mainly for headphones but there's some IEMs there): https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets) and crinacle's articles on what amps/DACs/etc. are and what they do.

Extra info on wired IEMs/headphones/Bluetooth/et cetera: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/11a550d/how_can_i_learn_the_basics_about_soundheadphones/j9r9r48/


As for the question on how to appear that you're a serious buyer IRL, just make sure to not be like me, lol. Don't go with casual clothing, and try to speak in say a more fancy accent/dialect, usually they'll see you as coming from the upper class and treat you better, lmao. I don't wear jewelry or anything, so maybe try that too, like an expensive watch.

Phew, this reached 10000 characters, I apologize for that.

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andysaurus_rex t1_j9wifv8 wrote

My biggest frustration with many online reviewers is that they are primarily influencers, because it gets them more views. They measure success in how successful the unit they reviewed positively was, and they take partial credit for how popular they are. Or they’ll say things in revised versions of a product like “the manufacturer listened to my advice” as if they have that much pull.

What I’m trying to say boils down to this. The reviews you watch on YouTube are hyped up. They want you to buy what they’re reviewing especially using the affiliate link in the description.

I’m painting with a broad stroke here but even the ones who are not paid by the manufacturer ARE still influencers.

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halfercode OP t1_j9xoe4p wrote

> Don't go [to a hi-fi store] with casual clothing, and try to speak in say a more fancy accent/dialect, usually they'll see you as coming from the upper class and treat you better

I doubt this would have worked - social attitudes in England are horrendously complicated. People putting on airs and graces to curry favour tend to be laughed at if the ruse is spotted, and even though the class system still limps on, the vast majority of British people value authenticity over artifice. Moreover, there is not a direct correlation between money and class here, even though they undoubtedly have feedback loops; people becoming immediately richer does not generally elevate them.

The class dynamics between me and Ball Scratcher make for intriguing speculation. He's probably wealthy, but his manners and attitude were rough as old boots. In class analysis terms, the seller would likely be regarded as "working class made good", and his vulgarity as "new money". I'm fairly gently-spoken, and my BBC English voice is sometimes described as "posh", but paradoxically I wonder if that caused additional resentment.

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