The Sennheiser veil is too real

Submitted by rob417 t3_11dkitc in headphones

I just got the HD 6XX and wanted to share my first impression after listening to it for a hour. This is by no means a review.

I started dabbling in this hobby a few months ago and I've become familiar with the AKG N5005 and Hifiman HE400i (2018). Both of them have nice sound stage and are more on the cooler side. Now when I put on the HD 6XX today, my first impression was that the sound was soooo claustrophobic, due to the narrower sound stage. And the highs did sound veiled - quite noticeably so. Such a stark contrast with the HE400i's somewhat sparkly and forward treble.

That said, I'm neutral about the HD 6XX. I don't dislike it because it does sound very, and I mean tremendously, nice for genres like jazz, acoustic music, and vocal-focused pop. It just didn't give me the "wow factor" that some others have experienced when first listening to them.

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Eezywhippet t1_ja9e489 wrote

HD 650/6XX don't have a wow factor, and that's kind of their thing. They just sound right to me. IMO, a wow factor comes from something being over done, whether its soundstage, treble etc. But after the novelty wears off, it becomes bothersome. I think people love the hd650/6XX and 600 because they are just easy and wonderful to listen to, even for long periods. They take a bit of getting used to if you're coming from something with a little more "pazzaz". But long term the 650/6XX are great. I suggest listening to them for a week or two exclusively and then go back to the akg and Hifiman and you'll probably feel differently about them..... or maybe not. 😁

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pkelly500 t1_jab3nzu wrote

Bingo. The HD 6XX is all about exquisite timbre and mids. Yes, HiFiMan has more air and sparkle, at the expense of a more thin, metallic timbre.

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09212 t1_jac2wrf wrote

>a wow factor comes from something being over done, whether it’s soundstage, treble etc

based as fuck, and very well said

the “wow factor” that people mention with the hd6x0 series only really occurs when people go from their beats or $20 earphones to a proper headphone for the very first time. i’m sure of this — especially considering the hd600 and hd650 are the most popular choices when it comes to reference open-backs

my r70x also sounds just right. it’s insanely neutral. yet i still experienced the “wow factor” purely because i’d never heard good sound before. i would’ve experienced the same thing if i’d went with an hd650 instead, but if i were to buy one now i’d probably feel like i wasted my money.

diminishing returns are huge in this hobby. it’s kinda crazy how some people just aren’t aware of that

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sustained_vibrations t1_ja9mxt9 wrote

Perfectly said. Switching between the XS and 6xx repeatedly is the perfect loop for me.

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radrod69 t1_jac2k7q wrote

This was my experience trying the 6xx coming from an Arya Stealth. At first, I couldn't stand listening to them due to their small soundstage, but after a couple of days I got used to it and was able to appreciate them for what they were. Eventually, I couldn't throw the Aryas back on; it turned out I much preferred the Sennheiser tonality over the Arya's. For my music preferences (music with vocals essentially), the 6xx was a much better match.

I did prefer listening to instrumental music through the Hifimans, but I realized I only listened to those genres as much as I did because I had the them. Once I got the 6xx, instrumentals became again a small portion of my listening time, and thus I could no longer justify keeping the Arya and I returned them.

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TaliskerBay22 t1_jabsyex wrote

That is absolutely right. For me though all the Sennheiser 6xx series does not work so well for orchestral music. Everything is on top of each other.

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rob417 OP t1_jad46ph wrote

Absolutely. Listening to anything with an orchestra with the 6xx just sounds weird. Everything is jumbled together right next to my ears and it's just not a great experience. Listening to the same orchestral music with my Hifiman is much more comfortable.

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blargh4 t1_ja9b2w1 wrote

IMHO a Hifiman enthusiast's "veil" is another person's "appropriate amount of treble". I prefer the HD600 relative to the HD6XX but I just find the Hifiman house sound unbearable.

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[deleted] t1_ja9ef8p wrote

[deleted]

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eaterofthesoil t1_jabfb9s wrote

which model are u eq'ing them to? hd600 presets or something else?

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blorg t1_jabl0fa wrote

If you have the HD600, you would use the HD600 preset. You always EQ using the presets for the model you have. The way it works, it's FROM the model to a specific target curve. So you need to start with the exact model you have.

Then there are three different options, Harman, Diffuse Field, or Oratory1990/Usound.

https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets

Basically USound is Harman without the bass shelf, so if you find Harman bass too much and just want flat bass, that's a good pick. It will still bring up the HD600 bass roll-off. I'm not a fan of diffuse field.

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eaterofthesoil t1_jabqsv3 wrote

dude thank you so much that's exactly what i was looking for lately. decreasing the bass and going harman. so how do i use that usound? available on mobile?

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blorg t1_jabtqk6 wrote

Harman will increase the bass quite substantially on the HD600.

So do you want Harman or decreasing the bass?

Neither of these EQs will decrease the bass, both will increase it, Harman above flat, Oratory1990/USound up to flat.

If you don't want the bass boost to be honest the HD600 is extremely close already and there is no need or reason to EQ it.

On PC I use Equalizer APO, for mobile I use a Qudelix 5K.

Android apps for EQ there is Wavelet which is free. You need to convert PEQ to use- you can do this using the equalizer tab on Crinacle's graph tool, and "download for Wavelet". Or Poweramp EQ you can enter PEQ values directly.

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eaterofthesoil t1_jacarfv wrote

yeah im using poweramp peq. so i was already asking for where could i find the Usound eq values if possible?

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oratory1990 t1_jacerk3 wrote

Same as for the Harman Over-Ear target, just with the gain of the 105 Hz low-shelf filter set to 0 dB.
Or better yet: set it to whatever sounds best to you, anywhere from 0 to 15 dB is fine.

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rob417 OP t1_jad3vy4 wrote

Yep. I used the "Optimum HiFi Curve" target and the HD 6XX sounds less bass-heavy. However, I think I will run them on stock tunings for a few weeks to see what I feel about them after my ears get used to the sound.

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aless530 t1_ja971pj wrote

Hate to admit this because the 6xx is my first headphone, but yea, that one can feel a bit too bloomy at time... that said, I recently got a headphone that is basically the first ever version of the HD 600, and that veil is not at all present... the bass is punchy but not bloomy, and the closer soundstage of the HD 600/650 makes it much better for listening over long periods of time.

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Extrapaj t1_jablx6j wrote

Make sure your pads are not worn out on the 650/6xx. Bass can get very muddy then.

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niubishuaige t1_jaa7exs wrote

Are you using an amplifier? The "Sennheiser Veil" term dates back to the mid-2000s Head-Fi. There were barely any headphone amps to choose from back then and even fewer with high power. "Sennheiser Veil" comes from people were running their HD series out of a soundcard or terrible low end amp when it needs a little more power. Trust me, I have made this mistake as well...

I'm not gonna claim the entire character of the headphone will be transformed with a good amp, but it does get quite a bit better. The HD series scales extremely well with better amps, to the point where a lot of people use it with tube amps costing 10x the headphone's price. Not suggesting that for you of course, I'm just saying you should be using a dedicated amp if you are not already.

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Claytonbigsbys t1_jaatpo1 wrote

I used the HD600 with an atom stack and it is indeed veiled (to my ears). That’s just the sound signature. Maybe with a high end tube amp or mods it goes away but it doesn’t need to be “under powered” to sound underwhelming. It depends on the individual’s tastes and preferences

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Hudson_bee t1_jac1lky wrote

Natural not veiled, overemphasis on treble is wrong.

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nebkelly t1_jac4vpp wrote

I agree. With the HD line I feel like I am putting a bag over my head. Or the sound is 'hot' or some such ridiculous analogy. Some people don't notice it, and others feel it is a feature not a bug.

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Asaltyliquid1234 t1_jacewte wrote

I enjoy them for the spicy 90s cds. They really tame a harsh sounding track.

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beardedtomato971 t1_ja9h997 wrote

>It just didn't give me the "wow factor" that some others have experienced when first listening to them.

Time to try focal clear? Haha. I had similar experience, wasn't blown away, got sundara and then after comparing I realised the beauty of both. 6xx is not fatiguing due to the veil, and the presentation of intimate mids lend very well for simple mixes. Privateering by Mark knopfler is an excellent listen with 6xx. So is pretty much anything with vocal and instrument focus without too much going on.

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InFortunaWeLust t1_ja9zgjz wrote

i just look at it as the music is mid focused and everything else is blurred. if it were a photograph it would be a picture of the vocalist very sharp and detailed then the band behind the vocalist blurred but present in the photo.

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VoicelessAuthority t1_jaapjw3 wrote

Give your brain some time to adjust! Having a collection of headphones with different strengths and weaknesses is really valuable/useful imo.

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BennyBlades44 t1_jaaulfm wrote

After you listen to them for a few days it makes most headphones sound like they have grainy treble.

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chrews t1_jabsld2 wrote

Well it would be boring if every headphone sounded the same. I personally love the 650/6xx because of its tonality, you can listen to music the whole day without fatigue and everything sounds butter smooth. I actually think they’re really unique in that way and no other headphone does this as well as them.

But I found that the best of both worlds for me is the HD800. It has that neutral Sennheiser sound, they opened up the soundstage big time and brought the treble up. Yet it still somehow reminds me of the 600/650, they even managed to improve the superb comfort and take it to another level. Maybe this could be an interesting choice for you, second hand they’re only like 600 bucks. Still pretty steep but they are such a great value imo.

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CrelbowMannschaft t1_ja9he4l wrote

Those are the two headphones I still have, too. I had Aryas, but sold them. They were better, but not better enough to justify keeping the money tied up in them. You can EQ both the 6XX and the 400i to the Harman target, and they'll still sound very different. I prefer the 6XX with these EQ filters. I prefer a flat bass response to the Harman bass boost on the 6XX, but prefer the Harman target on the 400i.

Even with EQ, I don't think the 6XX "wow" me. They're magic, often, but never exciting.

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Kirei13 t1_jab7zld wrote

>And the highs did sound veiled - quite noticeably so. Such a stark contrast with the HE400i's somewhat sparkly and forward treble.

The HD 6xx have a warm neutral sound, the treble is supposed to be recessed. HE400i is neutral but it does lean towards the treble. People could argue that it is a bright neutral sound so they would be polar opposites. You can easily compare them with this graph:

https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/graphtool/?share=IEF_Neutral_Target,HE400i_(2020),HD650_S2_(2020)_(fresh_pads)

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chunmaru t1_jabqhw6 wrote

You may simply be used to a brighter sound sig, use it for a while and go back. You might realise your previous headphones had simply been too bright.

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rhalf t1_ja9l9fa wrote

Yeah, the newer Senns sound dead. The sennheiser veil used to be lack of treble, but these donlt have upper mids too. Make sure you never buy current Apple headphones then, haha. They are HD6xx squared. One day I equalized my ear gain flat with my own ears and then listened to heaphones like this. It was awful, sounded like an ear infection.

That being said, if you read B&K occluded ear simulator patent, you'll see that there is a big variance in our ears. Some ears have a response that matches headphones like the 6xx. HD650 is matching the median very closely up to 6k and then drops a little. Many people complain that they're too hot, so it tells you something about neutrality.

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miles971 t1_jabd2y9 wrote

What did you expect from 27 years old headphone?

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oratory1990 t1_jacf3jk wrote

Its shortcomings have nothing to do with its age.

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09212 t1_jac2d1j wrote

are you lost

the hd6xx came out like 6 years ago and they’re based on a 20 year old headphone

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oratory1990 t1_jacf1gd wrote

The HD6XX is based on the HD650 the same way that the HD650 is based on itself - it is just a different packaging and cable. Exact same acoustics.

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09212 t1_jacgn50 wrote

yeah exactly. i was just pointing out that whichever way you put it, it’s not a 27 year old headphone

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oratory1990 t1_jackq2w wrote

It's origin is the HD580, which was released in 1993. That's 30 years ago.
The HD580 Jubilee (1995) and HD600 (1996) are small modifications of the HD580, and the HD650 (2003) has slightly less distortion.

It's old - ancient, if you were to apply the same metrics as for e.g. semiconductors.
But (passive) headphones are not semiconductors, and how good a headphone is generally doesn't correlate a lot with how old it is.

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