What does a high end DAC really offer?

Submitted by hurtyewh t3_121eufv in headphones

I've been thinking about getting some high end DAC, perhaps an R2R one, since I don't have much experience with one yet. My feeling so far is that if it measures well it's good and if it measures poorly it adds often random coloration. From dongles to Topping, SMSL etc they sound the same (as in I sould not pass an ABX) and the ones that have sounded different sounded worse (messy, bloomy, thick etc).

Any thoughts what the Holo Mays etc offer instead of a premium feel and added concentration which improves subjective experience?

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szakee t1_jdll8r0 wrote

the illusion that you didn't waste a thousand bucks.

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OverL1ke t1_jdlmq6z wrote

From my experience, features

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szakee t1_jdvmycv wrote

for example?

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Ticonderogue t1_jdw9zbi wrote

Typically you may find usb Or optical input, sometimes both, and rca preamp output. These are basic features.

However, you may want balanced XLR input, sometimes you'll find all of the above.. XLR and RCA and coax and optical, Bluetooth (and what version matters for use case, range used, reliable connectivity, ear bud compatability, ... ie BT v4.0 to 5.2, LDAC, apt-x, etc), 3.5mm aux input, location of power and input selects for convenience sake, how easy the selects are to read and use, switches or buttons, tactility, the placement, feel and dampening on the volume knob perhaps, how easy it is to read said volume, overall build quality, remote control, digital display, HDMI input, custom EQ, 5 band, 10 band, Parametric EQ, MQA, or if you don't want MQA - none (and you may save 50-150 doing so), or ability to turn MQA on and off at will (rare), etc, etc.

The possible feature options or combinations thereof are many.

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Gizm0Guru t1_jdm47av wrote

Speaking for me personally…

I’ve got two main DAC/Amp combos: Ferrum Erco desktop and a Chord Mojo 2 portable.

I also have 15 pairs of headphones/IEMs ranging from HD 660S2 to Focal Utopia (just illustrating I have a range from mid-FI to TOTL).

I’ve also, like many, gone through many different pieces of kit over the last ten years or so. Here’s what I get out of my DACs…

Improved sound is for real IF you have the right headphones. People talk a lot about pairings, and comparisons can get pretty intense, but in my experience, generally, the higher in tier you go on headphones, the more likely you are to hear very subtle differences in DAC quality. These usually aren’t big noticeable differences like obviously noticeable frequency response differences but could be things like slightly more space between pieces of the mix, better imaging and staging, higher resolution, more natural timbre. I can notice these things more easily (though still with focus) on something like the Utopia or D8000 Pro than the 660S2.

Features is also legit. One of the reasons I love the mojo 2 is the exceptional EQ. This has enabled me to take even over ears that need decent power on the go and still be able to EQ them (the mojo EQ is far better then EQs you find on places like Spotify and Apple Music, etc.). This is a feature that mattered for my particular situation, but as you can imagine, there are many.

Collector/brand/emotion/design - some of us just have a passion for this hobby and trying different kit or want to support different brands, and/or yes, artistic/personal expression (even at a price).

My 2 cents. Enjoy the journey!

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juannyca5h t1_jdoj165 wrote

Very well said my friend, and I would agree. If you have very resolving headphones, you’ll be able to appreciate the differences of the chain in my experience.

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coptician t1_jdlmilu wrote

The only one that I think is worth it, is the ADI-2. It has features no other dac has. I have mine auto switch eq profiles based on whether I use speakers or headphones.

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdlmlvp wrote

Noted. Might actually be something I could use as well.

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TheRealRodStewart_2 t1_jdloqqj wrote

£1200 useful?

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdlotrq wrote

Not really, but still.

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juannyca5h t1_jdoj61c wrote

As an owner of the RME, it’s absolutely worth the $$$ for things like auto ref and loudness features on top of the very capable EQ settings.

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gikigill t1_jdpq7h7 wrote

I run 2 ADI-2s.

One for my Martin Logan active electrostats and one for my main headphone set up.

The sound quality, features, tweaking and remote are absolutely fantastic and worth every penny.

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vext01 t1_jdlxrq4 wrote

A warm fuzzy feeling inside...

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdlxven wrote

What better investment.

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vext01 t1_jdlyl1k wrote

Ask on head-fi for opposing views.

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdlyp3d wrote

I won't.

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vext01 t1_jdlyt2d wrote

Why not? Don't tell me you are on of those cultist people based in reality?

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdm12o5 wrote

Let's just say that I've spent my time there and I'm good.

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vext01 t1_jdm3gt9 wrote

Me too...

The ifi lan isilencer thread finished me

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Background_Summer_55 t1_jdmeczw wrote

Differences are subtle, buying a other pair of headphones is mostly a better investment than a high end DAC. Changeing headphone can make alot of difference, a other DAC not really. A good dac with a shitty headphone will still sound shitty. A great headphone with a shitty dac will still sound kinda good in my personal experience.

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdmerei wrote

Yeah, I'm getting an LCD-5 soonish most likely, but I'm mainly interested in having experience with the difference and knowing if there's anything meaningful there. I already know that it's mostly pointless to go past the well measuring $100-150 DACs up to $500, but whether TOTL could add something interests me. Like I prefer HE6se V2 over almost all headphones 4-8 times it's price, but an LCD-5 is damn nice at 10 times the price.

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giant3 t1_jdmvkmx wrote

The highest quality DACs are only around $10 in 1k units. With components+testing+profit, a very high-end unit like JDS Element is only $450.

What does it offer? Pitch-black background,neutral sound and sufficient power for any headphone.

A high quality DAC is transparent and doesn't colour the sound.

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdmysrz wrote

Well DAC chips yes, but those can of course be implemented very poorly or very well. A good $50 dongle DAC seems indistinguishable from the cheap Toppings etc which measure far better than most TOTL DACs and the JDS Element.

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giant3 t1_jdn2wm4 wrote

I agree. Even $75 DAC from FiiO or iBasso is good enough and you don't need anything more.

I was answering the, "What does it offer?" In general, higher quality DACs offer extremely low distortion even at low digital volume levels while cheaper DACs measure very well at 0dBFS, but degrade at -30 or -40 dBFS.

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Bdimasi t1_jdoaeew wrote

I’ve got two. Topping D90SE and R2R Denafrips Ares II. They both offer me options when listening and varying experience whilst listening. Topping gives me Bluetooth option to connect, so I can stream Apple Music from my phone, or other streaming services or YouYube. I’ve really utilised this feature, so useful. A great DAC IMHO, and is a very resolving and clear sounding DAC. The Ares II gives me a slightly less fatiguing listen, with more spaciousness and smoothness. Perhaps slightly less detailed than the Topping, but so minuscule a difference. I enjoy both. I bought DACS only, so could pair with different amps. Balanced connectors for everything. That’s my input.

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Toronto-Will t1_jdlzpio wrote

I very recently bought (then had a change of heart and returned) a Topping E70. Per ASR it measured spectacularly well, right near the very top end of everything they’ve ever tested. And I noticed nothing in terms of sound, other than it added 60ms of lag. The paired L70 amp also ran way hotter than the Monolith dac/amp I was replacing.

I liked the aesthetics of the E70 / L70 stack, it felt premium in a way that I think counts for something. Placebo is part of the listening experience, and I’ve come to terms with that. But for $1000 bucks (CAD) it just wasn’t worth it.

I have a newfound appreciation for the fact my Monolith runs cold, and also it has a feature called “dynamic range compression” that I’ve come to like for gaming, because it softens the sharpness of loud noises that otherwise hurt my ears. For me it’s about quality of life features like the DRC, and about reliability (the reason I prefer the Monolith over various cheaper and smaller options is because it doesn’t drop out or crash, problems I’ve had repeatedly with other devices).

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SayEye t1_jdm17hr wrote

I have used my favorite headphones and they are not open but closed without a dac for more than 20 years.

To be honest it's preference and also depends on you.

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdm1ev5 wrote

I mean there is a DAC somewhere unless you somehow use them fully analog.

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SayEye t1_jdmd0g0 wrote

I had the PX5/7 from reviews the headphones were supposed to be very good with huge soundstage.

I never felt that, had to remove earpads to enjoy them better but went momentum 3, for me these are very good and enjoy them more.

I will try getting a dac and re use my PX5 maybe I might recoup the 350usd lost, but then I might be wasting more money rather than just enjoy my momentum 3.

Audio quality really depends on

1 headphones 2 Source quality 3 subjective preference and also music type 4 EQ 5 Transmission type

I have played around with the above and still enjoy my headphones but will consider a dac only for serious listening, to me it's like getting a VR device,some get immersed by VR, for some it's still not good enough but just a gimmick

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdme8jm wrote

I mean all bluetooth audio devices have a DAC built it already. A desktop DAC is different. Likely mixing any external dacs or amps with BT devices will only make them worse since they usually have internal DSP without which they'd lose all purposeful tuning.

I have 40+ headphones, dozen dacs and amps etc, but the high end dac side of things I have little experience with.

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SayEye t1_jdmtobf wrote

Thank for letting me know... Most recommend Topping DX3pro + and the Version 2 of Ifi zen dac

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdmuikn wrote

Yeah, I have both, but with high end I mean something like $1000 and above for just the DAC.

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SayEye t1_jdmzryg wrote

Wow that's a nice price, you probably would want one with better connectivity because judging by a youtube review the topping dx3 pro plus and dx5 sound the same, it's the placebo effect I guess for high end dacs. 1000 actually gets you closer to high end headphones like Susvara, wouldn't you want rather to invest in those.... Don't say you have them already🤣😉

Good luck

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdn20zv wrote

I haven't heard them and that's a bit much for a blind buy, but I'm getting an LCD-5 soon which is close to that price range. My expectation is that a $100 Topping E30 does essentially everything worthwhile soundwise, but I'm interested in being sure. Some Chord stuff in the thousands of dollars I like less than some cheap stuff as well. We'll see if I find any motivation to get the DAC. Seems not for now.

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giant3 t1_jdmua9e wrote

Unless your source is a cassette or LP, there is a DAC involved some where in the audio chain.

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blargh4 t1_jdn07kd wrote

Bragging rights to other head-fi’ers? I’ve heard the Holo stuff and heard nothing to challenge my assumption that it’s a enormous waste of money for anyone who doesn’t thow around thousands of USD casually.

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdn27g2 wrote

Yeah, that's my expectation as well.

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Ticonderogue t1_jdnhou1 wrote

Unless you have a DAC problem you can hear and measure, you have no problem.

It's what people do when they have nothing further to do or spend their money on. A high end DAC is a solution to a virtual problem that isn't discernable to the human ear in so many cases that unless you're really intentionally looking for a bad dac below $89, you won't find one. Some people throw big money at expensive DACs because they want to be absolutely sure it's the best to match their expensive components. And then there is confirmation bias, a placebo effect that goes something like, Oh yes, now I can hear stupendous detail, and so much more width - because I paid $1400 for this DAC. Today, a $100-200 DAC is as audibly transparent, with vacuum of space-like pitch black noise floor to several zeros of fractional decimals beyond human hearing as a so-called high end DAC. THX in consumer products was a revelation for many, that you don't need to spend an arm and a leg to get perfect audio transparency - and power. Some people will say there's coloration in the 'budget' DACs. I think That's where the problem lies. Strictly because a DAC may be inexpensive and therefore available to most budgets, and because there are much more expensive DACs on the market, we call the cheaper DACs... Entry Level, as if.... there's tiers of excellence in the case of DACs. Excellence in DACs has come way down in expense. That's where we're at. It's finally amazing for everyone to enjoy at any budget. So don't go spending big money for audibly nothing in return. Or do. If you'd like to thank the R&D of top tier companies for the trickle down tech that gifted us all with "inexpensive high-end" DACs.

It's best to look for a dac with the Features you want. Maybe you want versatility, or maybe you want it to do just one thing. Maybe you want balanced connections, power button and selects on the face, Bluetooth, preamps, optical, USB, coax, subwoofer output, phono preamp with ground, a good feel, build, looks (constantly cleaning off really noticeable fingerprints on finishes piss me off lol), etc.

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Sopdope69 t1_jdnirgl wrote

I/o and general features are what matter. You can find most features one needs well under 500 bucks. Anything above that mid level price point Is snake oil

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InFortunaWeLust t1_jdq6sw2 wrote

features, filters, inputs and outputs

people spend more on TVs for their living rooms. I myself don't even watch TV so spending on a decent dac/amp and speakers/headphones is more for me.

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ComfortableEbb2562 t1_jdsgh13 wrote

"high end" dac amps don't exist it's just an illusion to sell you this mystical Idea to buy their product. You have to do your own logical research and ask yourself why you are buy a particular product.

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JAaSgk t1_jdnjyyw wrote

Please before buying anything expencive take the time to visit your local hifi shop and just find out for yourself by listening!

Amps make a big difference. Dacs can make one too but if you have a decend one I think they should be the last part of the chain to go crazy with.

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdnnmkq wrote

None of the options I'm considering are available here for testing. Not even to buy used really.

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kazuviking t1_jdluaky wrote

The May looks good but way too big and uses proprietary cable for power. Most expensive stuff uses the same 1 cent part from china, heavy an big on purpose so it feels like quality and most importantly the bullshit marketing that tricks uneducated people into buying. Performance wise the Holo Hay aka the best R2R dac is up there with top performing ΔΣ dacs.

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mqtpqt t1_jdmdw0h wrote

> uses proprietary cable for power.

the may is sold with a power supply unit, that takes a normal IEC cable

​

>uses the same 1 cent part from china

then you haven't seen the May's BOM (not that i agree with the price, but its definitely not from china); Rubycon ZLH caps, Panasonic FC, Vishay Caps

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kazuviking t1_jdmj48h wrote

The last part was about most "high end" manufacturer not holo audio in specific.
The may uses a custom locking 21 pin aviation cable to connect the dac with the psu. What i like about holo is that its straight porn with their pcb design and layout. If i'm correct, holo audio was the first one with the best usb implementation.

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mqtpqt t1_jdmjf3c wrote

galvanically isolated USB, yes.

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kazuviking t1_jdmrk52 wrote

Not just galvanic isolation but some re-clocking and other magic as well if i remember it correctly.

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lexicalsatire t1_jdlwxoz wrote

>most importantly the bullshit marketing

To be honest Holo Audio (the manufacturer) doesn't do much marketing.

But yeah most products you can assume are marked up by a lot

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covertash t1_jdnfz1f wrote

The benefit of R2R DAC's is less about the discrete components, and more about the ability for the manufacturer to create their own custom filters, as opposed to using the ones that are readily available by the chip makers. This is also why the stereotype/myth that all R2R DAC's being inherently "warm", across the board, is untrue. Some are, some aren't.

If you happen to have used a DAC that offers adjustable filters, you may find that the differences are quite subtle, so if you already have a hard time discerning these changes in sound, you may want to spend your money elsewhere.

With that said, if R2R is what you are after, make sure you research the exact one you want, rather than picking one up just for the sake of having one.

Edit: For some additional context.

Here is a fairly recent interview of Jason Stoddard of Schiit Audio answering the question about why discrete DAC's make a difference with layering, staging:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzVb6LWtV9Q&t=830s

Separately, here are my impressions of the Schiit Bifrost 2, from over 2 years ago before the above interview took place:

> The Bifrost 2 sounds like a 2-3 dB low shelf filter has been applied, except it's not as heavy-handed and blunt as your average headphone EQ profile. Whatever the DAC's filter is doing, it is doing it in a much more precise manner that doesn't cause the bass elevation to unnecessarily bleed into the mids, and can be consistently heard across all of my headphones, in the limited "blind" testing that I have done. What cannot be EQ-ed is the way sound now has a semblance of layering and depth, and it's no longer just a flat "wall of sound", although it is much more obvious with some headphones over others. With that said, bass notes have much more nuance now than I was able to easily perceive previously. Perhaps this is the better time domain performance that R2R DAC's seem to excel in, but all I can say is that it is markedly and obviously different - I leave it up to you to decide if it is necessarily better.

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/l7b4w7/what_is_your_take_on_high_quality_amp_and_dac/gl8jwqv/

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdni8i7 wrote

I can hear differences in some filters, but I don't find them better or worse in any usually just different. If it is so that purposeful coloration is the only way high end DACs offer something soundwise then that makes sense. Like Naim power amps etc have a very distinct sound which works pretty well regardless of genre if a tight, punchy, energetic sound is what one is after. If some R2R DACs offer filters that artificially, but functionally improve separation, soundstage etc without being a detriment in most music then I wouldn't mind trying that out.

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covertash t1_jdnj9ah wrote

>If some R2R DACs offer filters that artificially, but functionally improve separation, soundstage etc without being a detriment in most music then I wouldn't mind trying that out.

For the above criteria, take a look at the DAC's from Denafrips, like the Ares II, now known as Enyo. I don't have personal experiences with their products, but when I was researching and considering them, these are the general impressions that were consistently conveyed - with the caveat that many report more pronounced results with speakers, rather than headphones.

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hurtyewh OP t1_jdnntnn wrote

Ares II was high on my list since the price is not so extravagant and many sing it's praises. Need to read more.

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andysaurus_rex t1_jdma415 wrote

Looks, features, and the same sound you can get for a fraction of the price.

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ThatGuyFromSweden t1_jdmlm44 wrote

Features and, in the case of some types of DAC, colouration of the sound in potentially pleasing ways.

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