Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

LucasRunner t1_iu4pjsc wrote

I liked the read and i understand why it might bring some disagreements.

But anyways, a certain portion of the writting caught my eye here:

"detailed headphone should not reduce dynamics and make the whispers in a jazz club easier to hear, it should allow for the listener to pick out discrete conversations and remove the vagueness between each person in the crowd, for example. The HD560S is an example of elevated treble making detail seem evident, but ultimately lacking in resolution of the actual recording"

This is of great interest to me. Is there any easy recommendation for people looking for this kind of detail in this price range at all?

If not, what are the first (price wise) headphones that have these kinds of qualities? At what price tags do these qualities first appear?

36

slooploop2 OP t1_iu4qroq wrote

I get a lot of with with my HD580 and HD650! It’s another $100 or so but I think it’s worth saving up a little for it. I actually realized how spoiled I was when I switched from the 560 to the 580 and it felt like removing a veil over my music. The DT880 resolves some of this too but I’ve never felt like it’s quite up there.

I wish the Focal Elex were more reliable, as I felt that was solid there too and not that hard to find for around $400-450…but their questionable reliability may be why they’ve gotten to that price. On the planar side, the Hifiman HE500, on the occasion they’re available used, weren’t too bad at that but do have a rather annoying mid treble peak.

23

LucasRunner t1_iu4sbl8 wrote

I see, thank you very much for your inputs in this!

Have you ever compared the HD600 to your 650s?

I think they are both an option for me and some people say there's little to no difference between them, others claim the 600's have a little more upper trebble making the 650s sound less "detailed" than them. Also, the 600s are somewhat more affordable over here but im whilling to go either way.

How would you compare them both?

And would you say they differentiate gear like the type of amp, class or other specific models you would reccomend? Some people claim there's no difference as long as they measure well, others claim some amps sound better than others; that they "scale" with higher end gear.

Anyways, happy that im being pointed towards my targets and i will certainly follow you.

Thanks again!

2

slooploop2 OP t1_iu4uw6n wrote

I have! I wrote a tiny bit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/nfewef/sennheiser_hd660s_impressions_versus_older_hd600/

​

In general I've found every HD600 variant I've heard to have a little too much 1kHz elevation which makes them sound just at the threshold of shouty to me, so I found I never wanted to use it so I've gotten rid of it every time I've owned one because I already have way too many headphones for someone that uses speakers 95% of the time. The HD650 usually has a little bit more elevation in the mid bass and less elevation at 1kHz so it sounds more relaxing. The exceptions are ones with paper baffles, which are rare enough that you really have to look for one to end up with one of those so you can assume that if you buy an HD650, you'll get a more relaxing sound than the HD600. They have a little more damping behind the driver than the HD600 so they do suffer a little in dynamic contrast though.

​

I'm in the "scale" team, as you probably could guess by the fact that I actually took time to list out my chain used for this review lol. But I certainly can't recommend most people buy a mid-priced headphone and also buy a mid-priced chain unless they have heard plenty of other headphones and find that they still like that same headphone more than the others. After over a decade into this hobby and having experience with most modern flagships, I still can't get over just how well the Senns do midrange and I'm willing to give up some resolution for that midrange, since most flagships can't live up to them in that one particular area. A lot of the music I listen to focuses on vocals though, so the things I index for may not match yours.

​

The best recommendation I can give though is to try everything you can off a cheap source to figure out your preferences. Then if you want to get into the nervosa of gear scaling, buy something that has good resale so if you find you don't hear a difference after a couple weeks, you won't be stuck with it. I've certainly sold a lot of gear because I found it either didn't make a difference or it sounded worse to me.

14

LucasRunner t1_iu53kjw wrote

Dude, thank you for the time typing it all, it sure helped me alot!

2

nokkynuk t1_iu73urz wrote

I moved to the dekoni fenestrated sheepskin ear pads with my HD650 as I already went through 4 pears of sennheiser velour and can’t stand how long they last. Are you using the stock pads?

−2

slooploop2 OP t1_iu9xr22 wrote

I am using stock pads. I’ve used a few Dekoni versions and I felt they ruined them for me so I just pay the pad tax every year or so. Way cheaper than buying another >$1000 pair of headphones that doesn’t even outperform it in the things it does best.

2

nokkynuk t1_iu9xuie wrote

True. I still have a pair new but I really don’t want to use them lol.

1

Wellhellob t1_iu5j9k3 wrote

He is describing Ananda perfectly there. Lacking dynamics and quiet sounds are elevated.

5

LucasRunner t1_iu5opzl wrote

Which planars would you say are your most dynamic ones? i see you have a bunch of them

0

slooploop2 OP t1_iu5v9te wrote

Not the person you responded to but the Hifiman HE6 (not HE6SE) and Audeze LCD4 are the only planars I’ve heard that I’d describe as dynamic. I remember the first time I heard the Susvara my first thought was, “Why the hell is this so limp?” I even used it off a speaker amp and I’ve used it in other systems since that first time and I still haven’t ever heard any sense of dynamics from them.

The Abyss 1266 TC was a huge disappointment to me from that perspective too—I realized from that a lot of people’s definition of dynamics was just elevated bass.

6

LucasRunner t1_iu62fqd wrote

Oh I see, you input is very welcome

You're not the first one ive heard saying the 1266 weren't dynamic.

Audeze LCD4's, ive read wonders about them but people always seem to bash them for not being "technical" enough, hence the LCD5 taking such hard left turn.

Too bad it weights as much as a small vehicle because it sure looks like a piece of jewelry.

Now about the HE6... ill dig more about them : )

0

slooploop2 OP t1_iu64gra wrote

I was able to compare the LCD4 and LCD5 back to back and was actually disappointed that the LCD5 sounded less technically capable to me. It traded some (much needed) pinna gain in exchange for losing the dynamics and resolution that Audeze finally got right with the LCD4. I’d been waiting for the LCD5 to come out for a while and…there’s a reason I see them selling for half their MSRP a year after their release. It has the exact issue I have with a lot of planars: they compress dynamics to make quiet sounds more apparent, but they really do sound like a step down in technical ability. Definitely a step up in comfort though.

6

Wellhellob t1_iu7df5t wrote

Did you heard the hd800s ? How is that one in dynamics department compared to planars ?

0

slooploop2 OP t1_iu9xkaw wrote

I’ve owned four different HD800 and used a few pairs of HD800S. The later serial number (>10,000) HD800 and HD800S sounded a little thicker and less dynamic than the early SN HD800 to me but all of them were more dynamic than the outlier planars I’ve heard.

4

Wellhellob t1_iu7d2zj wrote

Arya Stealth is the most dynamic i've heard but people say he6se, lcd x very dynamic.

0

wagninger t1_iu7vzfv wrote

There are 2 complicating factors I think…

  1. it’s a sliding scale, not something where you would say, headphone x doesn’t have that yet, but headphone y definitely.

I have headphones that seem to have that quality more than others, but this is also dependent on how a headphone stages - sometimes it feels like I noticed certain elements mostly because they appear somewhere else than where I was expecting them

  1. the ear is a funny thing… once you get used to higher quality gear and hearing things that you didn’t hear before, you train your ears and will also hear those things on lesser gear, to a degree.

I know this doesn’t answer your question, but hopefully inspires a bit to do you own experiments with the type of music you want to listen to 😊

0

LucasRunner t1_iuao0aj wrote

Thanks for the tips mate

BTW, someone is downvoting us all here, no idea why since you where incredibly helpful and eloquent in your answers. Thanks!

1

bootstrapper52 t1_iu4lx3g wrote

Just got some hd560s in yesterday. It was a total impulse buy, a deal popped on slickdeals for $85 for a refurbished pair.

I'm happy with how they sound, especially given what I paid for them. They do sound thinner than hd600 though, which is my biggest nitpick. There's definitely more treble, but it doesn't feel quite as smooth as hd600. Bass feels like it extends lower, but the reduced lower mids robs them of some fullness.

That's just my initial impression, need some more time with them to get my ears properly acquainted,

Dt880 is still my current go to. Maybe my ears are just shot, but the peak doesn't bother me at all.

26

slooploop2 OP t1_iu4n3xv wrote

The $85 deal was legitimately very good! I told a couple people to buy them at that price. $200 seems steep for this but anything under $100 makes plenty of sense.

20

hiwassupiamfine t1_iu4u0bm wrote

HD 560s cost close to 300$ in India and we rarely have any discounts ರ⁠╭⁠╮⁠ರ

6

VizFlux t1_iu4x15n wrote

You could always get a cheaper headphone, or wait for a discount on one locally

2

JustAu69 t1_iu4p1qf wrote

Something is off about the timbre and soundstage. Sounds grainy and plastic

10

televisionceo t1_iu54aeg wrote

They are fucking awesome. They are best for classical music, prog rock, jazz, andeveything involving guitars.

2

slooploop2 OP t1_iu4gavd wrote

Good audio should be accessible to everyone. While it’s very nice that I’m fortunate enough to be in the position to use the kind of gear that I never thought I would be able to have growing up, I recognize that more often than not, I’m yelling into the wind when I talk about how much I like stuff like the ZMF Atrium or Audeze LCD4. In the real world, the sub-$200 USD over ear open headphone market currently is dominated by two headphones: the planar-magnetic Hifiman HE400SE and the Sennheiser HD560S. While I appreciate the opportunity to be able to finally hear both these headphones, I can't help but feel like even for the amount of money they cost, I expect a bigger upgrade from other things that cost less money.

Read more: https://den-fi.com/hifiman-he400se-versus-sennheiser-hd560s-modestly-priced-madness-review/

22

slooploop2 OP t1_iu4guma wrote

Right after this was published I found out the DT880 can be purchased straight from Beyerdynamic for $175 in the US, which I think I would rather have than the HD560S, assuming I can EQ down treble. But for the sake of this review, I'll treat the DT880 as a $300 MSRP headphone like I thought I remember it being...

15

PH-GH95610 t1_iu54yte wrote

I bought DT880 for around 150 € brand new with 2 year guaranty. And I think they are amazing.

2

Giggleplex t1_iu65vr9 wrote

How does the HE400se compare to the HE400i?

1

slooploop2 OP t1_iu6edti wrote

I haven’t owned an HE400i in a while but I recall that it’s thinner, but the midrange is less recessed and treble is way less annoying. I’ve seen used ones dip below $100 and for that money it’s pretty solid if the pads aren’t wrecked.

2

dongas420 t1_iu73wdd wrote

It's nice to see someone else in the Anti-Elevated Treble Gang. Too much treble energy is basically the root of all evil, whether it's poor macrodynamics caused by specific harmonic overtones drowning out everything else, plasticky timbre that ravages vocal- and bass-centric tracks, making them sound artifically smoothed-over or limp, or transient smearing that leads to severe loss of detail and congestion.

1

listener-reviews t1_iu4hc4t wrote

As someone who also had these two back to back... I have no idea how people are recommending the HE400SE. 560S sounds like a normal headphone (flawed sure, but normal) while the 400SE sounds broken in more ways than one.

12

slooploop2 OP t1_iu4jbvd wrote

I’ll be honest, I was way nicer about the HE400SE than I actually feel because I didn’t want to put off too many people new to the hobby that stumble across this review if they happen to see it, but it legitimately felt like a chore to use the HE400SE. Every time I caught myself thinking, “Okay this is $109 maybe my standards are too high,” and put on my KSC75 as a sanity check I cursed at how much less terrible the KSC75 is. My partner’s wireless Bose headphones sounded more normal. As someone who legitimately was a big fan of Hifiman stuff in the past, I can’t believe how disappointed I was in the HE400SE.

18

SiegwardZwiebelbrudi t1_iu4illa wrote

> 400SE sounds broken in more ways than on

Knowing Hifiman it probably was broken in more ways than one. I own a HE400Se, run it from a Dx3pro+ and its one of the nicer headphone experiences i had. (with very basic eq, little bass little 2k bump)

9

slooploop2 OP t1_iu4jj6m wrote

I don’t think the problems were FR-related; it generally followed the same curve subjectively as every other modern Hifiman I’ve heard, but the intangibles are so, so bad.

6

VizFlux t1_iu4vs3q wrote

I tried various releases of the HE-400 series, including some of the more recent versions. The 400i, 400S, 4xx, 400 (2020), and 400SE. I haven't enjoyed my time with any of the drivers, and have been happier purchasing non-functional units for headband assembly parts rather than enjoying "cheap thrills" of Hifiman.

After reading the review, I found a lot of OP's comments about the frequency response ring true for me as well. Having a deep recession to get a boost to the soundstage doesn't appeal to me relative to the veil that vocal overtones experience when the fundamental frequency is so dominant.

I don't use as much EQ on budget headphones because of the subjective downgrade in dynamism, due to the limited technical ability of said headphones, becoming ever more present when listening critically. I would rather save up and buy a headphone that checks more boxes for me, or get a cheaper headphone that will work with dongles and cheap portable gear.

It seems we won't agree, because of one reason or another. If it's QC, why should a consumer have to mull through a lottery or RMA a headphone multiple times in order to get a "good unit" in hand? On the other hand, I'm invalidated by not being willing to accept a handful of budget headphones as "good enough" when my surrounding gear is so tailor-made for what I like to listen to.

5

PH-GH95610 t1_iu55hbv wrote

Everybody id different with different taste. I own DT880 and HE400SE I think both are really good. Also depends on music you are listening to. I dont use them for DNB or simolar genres. But for Jazz, vocals - they are amazing.

2

Addo76 t1_iu60ccd wrote

The 400SE headband felt like it was trying to cut into my brain so...there's that

2

nadtorus t1_iu7pshd wrote

Can you elaborate what do you mean by "broken"?

I have HE400se, it's been a roller coaster experience in the first week I was using it. It sounds distorted in the low end and sounds like broken headphones in several songs even in relatively low volume. Even I had a little imbalance. BUT I decided to give it some time, andd it's getting better and better in sound quality (not the tuning wise because that could be my brain just adapted to its sound. But I like the tuning since the first time I was using it nonetheless). I don't know why but the distorted sound and imbalance isssue has been gone completely. I didn't really trust the burn-in methods in headphones but it seems it's more impactful in planar headphones (yeah HE400se is my first planar).

My point is, if your 'sounds broken' experience is similar to me (and you have returned the unit), maybe you just didn't give it more time to it. But if your experience is completely different, I'd like to know more! Thanks.

1

aka_KyZa t1_iu4me37 wrote

I see strange responses in the comments to me... I really liked the HE and I've tested it right beside the HD600 with wired btr5 and balanced cables for both. No eq. HE was juuust a bit worse than 600 whilst being almost 3 times cheaper. I would've picked HE immediately, if I didn't have German Maestro GMP400 already, which is quite on par with HD600, if not better in some cases.

3

Ur_Mama_fat t1_iu5bsnt wrote

I got my pair of he400se (nom stealth magnets) directly from china for ~$60, which is the same price i got for my Moondrop Arias, and the arias sounds better in my opinion though they are completely different categories

3

Amogus2021 t1_iud8bcw wrote

60? Aren't they closer to 130? I checked on aliexpress they weren't a lot cheaper than American market

1

Brbi2kCRO t1_iu5f9sn wrote

HE400se is great for me, but its’ timbre is slightly off, and I believe it is due to high midrange distortion that neither HD560S nor HD600 series has.

Imo best vintage buy you can buy is HD580. That thing is quite detailed and neutral sounding, if not slightly brightish.

2

PolarBearSequence t1_iu51l52 wrote

Only speaking about the 560s here (since I avoid Hifiman):

I expected your points to be much more controversial than they ended up being. I generally like the 560s and think it’s a good starter headphone, but I cannot disagree with any of your observations. Generally, I think the 600 series is very much a step up from there at a still reasonable price point. The only things some people claim are better on the 560s are soundstage (which is only slightly larger) and bass response (which doesn’t actually sound better either) while the 600 series beats them in all other points.

Interesting shoutout to the old planars at the end there! I’ve recently been interested in vintage headphones a bit and you’ve just made me start browsing eBay again…

1

slooploop2 OP t1_iu54a89 wrote

Thank you for reading!

Vintage stuff is really interesting; almost every vintage dynamic headphone I’ve owned was a flop but I’ve been pleasantly surprised by most of them.

2

Wellhellob t1_iu5jd44 wrote

I think the thick bass you describe from the 400se comes from stealth magnets. Arya SE is like that too.

1

listener-reviews t1_iu5r2im wrote

Honestly I’m pretty sure its from the midrange scoop robbing the sound of most of its textural overtones. Most Hifimans kind of sound like that.

2

Suvtropics t1_iud9kyy wrote

Some time ago I was in the market for exactly these 2 pairs of headphones. After a lot of research I ended up getting the 560s, and seems I've made the right call.

I also agree with pretty much the entire description of the headphone the reviewer gives. The fake clarity, difficulty discerning sounds but having high treble at the same time, bass resolution not being too great, I've noticed them. But it's still great and works perfectly for my needs. When I need that deep rumble and isolation I just go iems. Overall, I think it's a good headphone and nobody's gonna lose anything getting it. (my opinion after a year of using the 560s)

Also bonus point - it drives well with anything. I often plug it into my iPad and listen straight from onboard audio, but I use dac amps with phone / pc.

1

muscleg33k t1_iu61735 wrote

is there a way to make he400se bassy??

−1

Wasted1300RPEU t1_iu63r4x wrote

If you EW using wavelet for Android or peace apo for windows just use oratory1990 or amirs EQ (from ASR? settings.

Makes them sound amazing

0

Daprosy t1_iue73hy wrote

I think most informed people that buy the HE400SE will be EQ'ing it, so odd to review it just with stock tuning.

You mentioned that you don't value soundstage width on headphones but then say you don't EQ as it reduces this ?

I got both HD560s and HE600s with me currently A/B using LS50 speakers + sub as a reference and HE400SE once EQ'd does not sound broken to me it actually sounds very good.

Did you even try them both with oratory EQ? HD560s stock tuning is decent ish so not that much of a change. HE400SE benefits a lot.

−5

slooploop2 OP t1_iufbgxj wrote

I don’t like reviewing things with EQ because I’ve never actually found the technical aspects of a headphone to be improved with EQ—quite the opposite in fact, so blank slate seems to be the most controlled way to review something to me. I do use EQ for a few headphones occasionally such as taking down 1kHz on the Borealis about 3dB with a 1.5 Q filter or bringing up upper midrange on Audeze stuff, but it does take away from dynamics so I only use EQ if I’m willing to take a hit to dynamics.

I don’t value soundstage, but EQ collapses the stage to the point where I actively notice the degration.

I tried both with Oratory EQ and it really just exacerbated most of the non-midrange issues I had with the HE400SE so I legitimately think the oratory EQ does it sort of a disservice…somehow.

I’ve had people question why I don’t talk about EQ in my reviews and it’s always been bizarre to me—I’m reviewing a product in the state it’s delivered; deviating from that in a way that varies so much depending on HRTF verges on dishonest to me.

6

Daprosy t1_iuhw9yw wrote

Fair enough just an odd conclusion to take. If a headphone has -10dB tuning in bass region, that could be a reason not to buy that headphone outright. If a simple EQ to that frequency reduces this issue then why is that dishonest to mention? Some headphones you simply cannot EQ as it distorts.

Similar to if you have 2 headphones, with one being much harder to drive you wouldn't review both from the same low power source, you would appreciate the different requirements of each headphone and review accordingly.

1

doctor-gooch t1_iufchi4 wrote

You can’t expect everyone buying a headphone to EQ or even know about EQ.

Remember; the point of reviewing isn’t supposed to be giving you or anyone validation for liking or not liking things. It’s to give feedback to brands on how to improve their product and information to consumers on what the headphone will be like in use. EQ doesn’t really make sense for either of those things.

I understand you probably like your headphones with EQ, but reviewing a headphone with EQ isn’t defensible IMO. It closes the gap in performance and gives brands more of a handicap than they ought to have, and is overly forgiving to a product experience that will likely be worse for the end users than it would be for a reviewer with a measurement rig + EQ.

Fwiw oratory’s EQs are only usable up to like 4-5kHz anyway. EQ is a nuanced thing that wouldn’t even necessarily fix 400SE’s most glaring flaw (the treble).

4

Daprosy t1_iuhtya8 wrote

People buying an open backed low sensitivity headphone that requires an amp to drive properly would know what EQ is I think. If this was a review on Apple air pods then fair enough, maybe they wouldn't.

The point of consumers reading reviews is to help them make an informed decision. If applying EQ to a headphone improves enjoyment or lessens some of the drawbacks of stock tuning it is fair for this to be mentioned in reviews. I didn't say that the review should only mention sound when EQ'd. If it doesn't improve enjoyment then that also is fair to say. Nothing dishonest about that IMO.

"Closing the gap in performance" - sounds like a positive thing for me, especially if it is free to do so.

0

[deleted] t1_iu4ju3i wrote

[deleted]

−15

listener-reviews t1_iu4klcl wrote

Any headphone will be passable/good with EQ provided you know how to EQ. I don't think we can expect readers to do that.

7

[deleted] t1_iu4lq0t wrote

[deleted]

−4

listener-reviews t1_iu4mlmo wrote

Most competently designed over ear headphones have low enough THD not to be a problem.

8

[deleted] t1_iu4ncnb wrote

[deleted]

−2

listener-reviews t1_iu4npj5 wrote

560S hits around 2%THD at 20Hz at listening volumes iirc. 6x0 is higher for sure but, to be clear, are you claiming you can hear 5% bass THD? Would love to test that theory.

The headphones that tend to have problematic distortion in the higher octaves are (funnily enough) usually planar magnetic headphones.

8

Borowski_123 t1_iu4lles wrote

If you don't like these two, at least recommend something for the same price or similar

​

Most people are not delusional enough to pay 1, 2, 3K for a pair of headphones

−15

slooploop2 OP t1_iu4mz02 wrote

I have no idea to be nicer than this, but I have an entire section detailing other cheap planar options, linked an amazing resource to discover different vintage headphones to research, and mentioned twice in the review that I think a $15 KSC75 sounds more normal than the HE400SE and also recommended the $40 Creative Aurvana Live. The purpose of the second half of the last paragraph is to say you can get better sound for cheaper.

Portapro also works for those that want a darker sound.

I’ve heard other things easy to find used that also work, but I know many people have an aversion to buying used so only offer that option to people that really want to experience the planar experience. If you’re actually shopping in the price range, the DT880 is apparently under $200 now, the AKG K612 is an interesting alternative but current refurb prices for the HD560S are more compelling.

11