I cannot hear a sonic difference between sources.

Submitted by porscheboy919 t3_ydilfk in headphones

A while ago, I had a discussion with a fellow audiophile about sources. They didn't spend a ton of money on headphones/IEMs, but they did on amps/DACs. They claimed that amps/DACs make a huge difference in terms of sound. I disagree.

I have 2 difference sources: Qudelix 5K, and JDS Labs Atom+ amp and DAC. Even with a demanding planar like the Hifiman Edition XS, I can not hear any difference between the 2 sources, and the Qudelix 5K can power the Hifiman XS just fine. I can hear a significant difference between different headphones, though. But not with different amps and DACs.

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ultra_prescriptivist t1_itskghm wrote

I have no idea why the Source > Speakers/Headphones still philosophy still exists.

It seems to me like a remnant of the days when subjectivism ruled the roost and no one actually bothered to do even basic A-B testing to see if spending $1,000 on an amp actually made much of a difference.

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Ikilledmypastaccout t1_ittfj12 wrote

In the subreddit it's just a remnant but for other forums like Headfi is still is the practice.

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NeonEonIon t1_itu05wk wrote

Headfi still shills cables and almost 99% of reviews won't even post a measurement.

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hurtyewh t1_ituf2jc wrote

In my experience speakers are very different in this sense. I wouldn't pay a penny extra for headphone amps as long as I get enough of clean power, but with speakers I'd much rather take many amp = 2-3 times the price of the speakers than the other way around.

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ultra_prescriptivist t1_ituogg5 wrote

Fair point.

I'm a headphone guy, so was thinking about it more from that point of view.

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hurtyewh t1_ituosgj wrote

Yeah, I only realized this myself in the last year since my assumption followed from speakers and and speaker amps that I have a longer history with. I still wonder why such a difference exists or could my experience just be skewed.

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ultra_prescriptivist t1_itupaq2 wrote

I pretty much assumed the speaker world would work the same way - that better engineered drivers have more impact on resolution, imaging, etc. than the source.

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hurtyewh t1_ituq5no wrote

That could and likely is through, but where as with headphones and IEMs my most common amp/dac recommendation is a Apple dongle or iBasso DC05 is we want to get fancy and I can barely hear any difference when comparing to a $500 stack or even the $2k Hugo2 etc. When I recommend speaker amps I go for Hegel H190 or Supernait 3 which sound absurdly good even compared to the step down models from the same brands. Those cost $4-5k and their benefits are very clear with a $1000 pair of speakers like Revel M16's to the point that I can't think of a better set for $5-6k. Would be nice to hear some non-seller expert talk about this.

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boredinballard t1_itsiewv wrote

It's not surprising that your two sources sound the same, they both use ESS DACs, which all have similar characteristics.

Moving from a Qudelix or JDS Labs DAC to some high-end DAC is going to be extremely subtle.

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trbd003 t1_itu7mts wrote

Very few people can tell the difference between DACs under blind testing. Most of what they're hearing is psychological... they've decided what they want to hear, and they hear that because that makes them feel good.

I ran a blind test in a room full of audiophiles. It was a professionally treated listening room with PMC speakers (IB2 I think which is a pretty high-end speaker) running from Bryston amps which are pretty unarguably the best amps you can buy. The converters were all top-end studio converters rather than hi-fi converters but principally the same thing.

Converters were tested in blind and people were asked to complete a form as they listened, and identify which was which and which was their favourite. The options were:

  • Prism ADA-8XR
  • Apogee DA16
  • IZ Radar 24
  • Burl B2
  • Avid 192 (Black)
  • MOTU 828mkIII
  • Macbook Pro (H/P socket)
  • Clickwheel iPod (H/P socket)

Between that lot you have a value enough to buy a house.

The results were absolutely all over the shop with virtually no correlation. Numerous people with 5-figure hifi setups put down their favourite DAC as being the iPod. Generally the favourite was the Apogee but the results were pretty much a bit of everything. The Macbook Pro got more 'favourite' votes than the Prism, which is, on paper, the one credited for being 'scientifically' accurate.

Incidentally in the same room we also did a test with various speaker wire, from QED, Monster, some boutique brands... and also a piece of 1.5mm flex from a £5 consumer grade power extension lead like you'd find behind your TV. The latter was pretty consistently voted the best sounding speaker cable.

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PutPineappleOnPizza t1_iu4gig3 wrote

Lmao I am not surprised at all but it's also pretty hilarious. My gf's dad own some very specifically made cable and well, it changes nothing and we tested that. We also tested his dac and amp against the FiiO K5 pro and I think his dac alone goes for 1k.. No difference either.

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blargh4 t1_itsltsh wrote

as long as your source is capable of driving your headphones without major frequency response changes (ie, Sennheisers and OTL tube amps) that is very normal, because the differences between competently designed sources are below the threshold of audibility. fortunately for snake oil salesmen, the human auditory system is very adept at imagining differences.

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The_D0lph1n t1_itsmrvk wrote

In general, I group sources into 2 categories, shitty ones and competent ones. I got a noticeable upgrade going from a SteelSeries GameDAC (your run-of-the-mill gamer gadget) to a Topping D10. Like yeah, the soundstage is a bit wider, and the details are more pronounced, and all that. But after that, I couldn't really tell a difference* between well-built, competent sources. So yeah, I had a pretty similar experience to you.

* About that asterisk, one of the things I can notice between different DACs is the effect of different low-pass filters. When I got the Topping D50s, I noticed over time that transients sounded slightly sharper on that DAC than on the D10 or any other DAC that I had. I then looked at the manual and found that the D50s by default used a different filter type than the usual sharp linear-phase filter. So I changed the filter type to sharp linear-phase, and the effect went away.

Recently, I was playing around with the filter types on my FiiO K9 Pro, and I found that if I upsample everything to 96 KHz, the filter type basically didn't matter. If I used exclusive mode on my music player so that 44.1K files were played at native sample rate on the DAC, then the filter type would make a slight difference. This is plausible from a signal analysis point of view, because at high sample rates, the aliases are so far above the audible range that any filter has enough attenuation to eliminate them, but at low sample rates, the slow roll-off filters do not properly filter them out and those aliases can be folded back into the audible range.

Another fun little anecdote: this past weekend I was at a local headphone meet, and I brought along my Stax amp and my electrostats. The store where the meet was held had a DCS Rossini (MSRP $33,000) that I hooked my amp up to. I was able to listen to some of my favorite and most familiar tracks at the meet, and not once did I notice anything new or different about what the Rossini did vs what my K9 Pro did. I respect the engineering and the FPGA-based architecture behind all of the DCS gear, but for me, that tech is more academic than practical. Maybe if I was playing a super-high-res master of the 1812 Overture I might notice a difference, but I'm just enjoying Illenium's new song from his upcoming album.

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Aracari_LoA t1_itss0n2 wrote

As someone that leans more towards the subjective persuasion the differences between sources are minimal if you compare two reasonably competent ones. Even then the potential improvements are dependent on how you listen and what you listen to. If you can't hear a difference don't be persuaded to buy more expensive gear and enjoy what you have.

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Billy__k t1_ittttrg wrote

Almost all modern dac amps are built so competently these days, you only really need to pic for the features you need.

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Miller_TM t1_itstd48 wrote

A good source should sound the same as another good source.

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hurtyewh t1_ituhzgg wrote

That's how it is. A clean well measuring amp/dac at any price range does pretty much what another clean and well measuring dac/amp. Output power changes, feel of the knobs, but sound differences usually come from coloration and distortion which many might prefer and might fit certain headphones very well, but that's purely personal preference and imo can't be considered a good worthwhile thing in general.

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QuadraKev_ t1_itumwct wrote

Most sources sound pretty good

It really only makes a difference when you have a really bad source

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bubblejohns t1_itukolz wrote

Unless there’s something wrong with them or they have a specific filter on them you won’t hear a difference with a dac.

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HooksAU t1_ityhl1n wrote

I've read trying Class A amp or an R2R dac will sound different to what you've tried. Can't say I know for a fact though since I've personally never tried them.

I wanna try the Singxer SA-1 and Denafrips Ares II. Who knows tho it could prove to be a waste of money.

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dimesian t1_itvldfb wrote

I notice a difference between different portable DAC/amps and I have a strong preference for two devices from the same manufacturer but, I wouldn't describe the difference as like night and day, more like good and a bit better, I can enjoy the other devices that I rarely use. Maybe they get more out of their gear than I do, I wouldn't like to assume that they're deluded, if there are people who think that all headphones sound identical, there are probably people who pick up on very subtle differences between devices.

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blah618 t1_itwout5 wrote

I don't try cheap amps and dacs so I can't say (because I just try for fun and am not shopping), but on the higher end, the signature and quality of the dac/amp can overpower the qualities of the headphones very easily. I'm not saying amps and dacs HAVE TO make a difference, or that they make a positive difference, but they CAN make a massive impact on sound

I don't use amps, dacs, or headphones because I only use a portable setup

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Wittgepedia t1_itx0quf wrote

Get ‘Talos’ cable from Arctic Cables… You will be blown away

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Lypertek t1_itsih71 wrote

Amplifier allows more volume. It increases power which can't alter frequency response.

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