"Found the following in some article "I think it’s a PET diaphragm with a PVD metal plating (likely Titanium)" But i really don't see why that matters, the looks of the diaphragm should be the very last of your priorities when buying a headphone

Airpods Max has very low THD across the whole 20 Hz to 20 kHz range, it outperforms lots of more expensive DD headphones.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/apple-airpods-max-review-noise-cancelling-headphone.25609/

Apple has apparently developed a very good driver which leads me to think what can those drivers achieve if placed in a pair of well tuned open back cans

THD isn't nearly as important as you think, it is incredibly difficult to hear, and even if it would outperform high end headphones (which it doesn't) it would make no real impact on sound quality, there are far, far more important aspects on a headphone that THD, and the airpods max fails to be competetive with high-end headphones on pretty much all of them, apple is (at its current stage) far from developing a "very good driver" and is on paar with the Sonys and Bose

No, I'm not talking about the whole headphone, I'm talking about just the driver itself. The THD is not the dominant factor of the sound quality, but it's really difficult to make a DD to have that much low THD. That's my point, the driver is great, it has lots of potential, given that the aurorus borealis' driver can be purchased with under $20.

Your source doesn't compare the THD of the airpod max with other headphone, so i can't say how reliable or good it really is, the only real website i know of which has a whole database of THD measurements is rtings while their reviews are BS, their measurements are still valid, and according to them the THD of the airpods max is about average

$1400 focal clear:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/focal-clear-review-headphone.18585/

$4000 focal utopia:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/focal-utopia-review-headphone.22103/

​

APM obviously outperforms those 2 in terms of THD

The Clear is still under 1% at 94Db, which is still louder than you should be listening at.

we are nerds, we care about things we shouldn't care

Not when you consider that music isn't a wall of sound, but instead very quick transients.

Anything under 1% isn’t a problem. Yea, the APM still somehow pulls off a really good distortion number, but it doesn’t really matter. I have an AirPods Max, and it’s a shame that on IOS there is no way to do a system wide EQ. I’d like them a lot better if there was.

I still never listen at 94Db or over. Most of my music isn’t all that dynamic though. The loudest parts of music I’m listening to still isn’t over 85Db, probably not even over 80Db.

I always love looking at the internals of Apple hardware. It’s beautiful.

You have no reliable way to measure that.

"Most of my music isn't tall that dynamic"

Yes it is. You realise sinewaves are just quick up down things right? You are underestimating the total volume during those peaks.

I listen to mostly rock and metal, and most of it isn’t very dynamic. I get what you’re saying but most of the music I listen to definitely doesn’t contain huge swings.

https://youtu.be/zTEQmmG6TzE

Not at all how headphones work. Drivers and the housings that hold them are developed in conjunction. Taking a driver out of one headphone and putting it in another housing will completely and utterly change the tuning, particularly if going from closed backs to open backs or vice versa.

Apple's drivers are nothing special. It's the combination of the drivers, housing, and more than likely DSP that makes them moderately good headphones. But totally uncompetitive with other $500 wired headphones.

I guess if you like glue and unrepairable scrap metal

Distortion is a threshold type measurement, the THD of most headphones is below the threshold of audibility everywhere but bass sometimes, and 3-4k most of the time, because most dynamics and planars have jank there.

Thank you, you spend lots of words saying nothing

Looks like carbon plating on a LCP diaphragm. However the surround and dome might have different levels of plating.

You're welcome, I hope some day you'll learn to read so you can understand them.

Flawed logic. It can’t even play infrasonic bass at regular volumes without the driver hitting X max and the voice coil jumping the gap— let alone handle a sub bass shelf EQ. It’s a heavily compromised driver

It helps to be informed before making outrageous claims.

THD is very useful to determine how a headphone will handle EQ. What authority do you have to declare the driver being far from good? The tuning is flat (by design) sure, but you have no way of comparing the driver design and quality to Sony or Bose.

What are “regular” volumes? I’ve had an Elex for 2 and a half years and don’t have any such complaints.

I don't need to compare the drivers directly, I can just look at measurements from different headphones and compare those, it gives you a good understanding on how good a driver/headphone performs, realistically noone is going to EQ to a point where the distortion starts playing a role, and if you are one of those people who actually does, ok, it is a important to you but you should also recognise that you are in the minority, I also don know what you mean with "flat" tuning, if you are referring to the Airpods, they are considered to be U-shaped, what about other aspects I take I to account when buying a headphone like detail retrieval, imaging and sounds, are they suddenly not relevant anymore or is there something I am missing?

This doesn't discount their multi-decade history of be8ng anti-consumer lol, I'm certainly glad they're finally changing though

It completely depends what music you listen to. I’m talking levels below what most people would consider their maximum. Like 80db. Many Hans Zimmer songs will cause the problem at extremely comfortable levels, when you still want to turn it up higher. “Why so serious” for example

My god, every machine from apple has that beautiful internals. They are just so neat ! iMac's, Pros ... Apple can be criticized for a lots of things but their designs-layouts are not debatable. It is like instead of some engineer, a painter or an artist made them.

https://youtu.be/K2WhU77ihw8

Don't take information from just one source. iFixit has long been generous with the ratings they give apple, I'm not sure if it's due to different teardown reviewing staff or methodology but they frequently have given competing androids that are easier to repair much lower marks than iPhones.

Regardless of that, however, don't put any faith in apple's so called "repairability". It appears to be more repairable - but the reality is that it's absolutely no different due to the software locks and availability of parts being terrible.

It's a PR stunt. Apple sees the encroaching right to repair laws and reacts with it like this to present an image to the public that they're being repair friendly, in an attempt to make people think right to repair laws are unnecessary.

In most cases, doing the repair apple's way yourself is actually more expensive than getting it done by apple. That's not repairability, it's marketing.

Ive run into it once with my elex. It was while I was messing with EQ though and didn't adjust the levels to compensate. Hasn't happened again though and I'd say I listen pretty loud unfortunately.

Eh, I've found them to be pretty accurate if not a little too harsh. YMMV based on how comfortable you are at taking things apart though. I've never worked on an iPhone, I don't own one so maybe they're more difficult. Definitely software locks are no good. But so are blanket "unrepairable scrap metal" statements.

Wow, that‘s nice! Thanks

They're still unrepairable scrap metal unless they make a real effort to make parts available at reasonable prices, remove all software locks and provide schematics for board repair. I don't rescind my comment; it's true. The same is true for any other company that follows in apple's footsteps, including samsung, and google.

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You made the mistake of saying something pro Apple in this subreddit. You will get downvoted Everytime.

Samsung glues their phone batteries in place. Must be awful to replace a battery.

Well, Apple does the exact same thing, just like any other phone manufacturer, otherwise the battery would rattle around in your phone.

Literally 95% of phones do this including apple

Can’t you buy parts and tools directly from the Apple website now for iPhones and such?

https://support.apple.com/self-service-repair

Is there an equivalent for Pixel phones or Samsung phones for example?

I’m not real familiar.

The Apple dongle is extremely capable. The Airpods Pro and Airpods Pro 2 are best-in-class soundwise and as an overall package (for a TWS). Both are given a lot of praise here.

You can, but only certain parts, and it's almost or even more expensive than having apple do it. Schematics still aren't available, which is just as crucial as parts availability, as it allows repairing specific components far more economically than just replacing the entire thing. A single resistor can be replaced instead of an entire $700 motherboard from apple.

On reddit in general*

You’re right, the APP and the dongles do definitely get their praise. Apple missteps a lot but I still think they catch a ton of flak.

You said it yourself that the APPs are best in class. I haven’t tried some of the really high end TWS stuff but they definitely beat the samsung ones I own (pretty much all the buds line minus the plus and buds pro 2) but even then, I still see the product catch a lot of flak from time to time.

Maybe some DLC (Diamond-like Carbon Coating) similar to audio technica?

They are some sexy drivers. I’ll take my pads off occasionally just to look at them.

Nah, the internals of Apple hardware have always been beautiful. Tiny and cramped and hard to work in sure, but so clean and neat.

iFixit's "repairability scores" are a joke

iFixit never actually tries fixing anything when doing those scores, they should be renamed to "teardownability scores"

Okay. I'll just keep scrolling on this Google phone I repaired. Apparently I didn't and it's scrap though.

I have a Samsung I've repaired as well; however, the first screen replacement I bought wasn't even close to the original. I had to return it and buy a used OEM one. And I can't find a replacement back that won't crack since they're all made from super cheap glass.

I've had so many pixels break I've lost count, and most of the time it's not economical to do the repair.

All of these companies have terrible options for repair

Is the driver bio-cellulose?

Sounds pretty shiddy tbh. I haven't had Samsung since the first Galaxy S, been using pixels since the first one. Only had to repair one, 4a5g. Screen was like $110. I can't tell the difference. My eyes may suck though. Generally I have good luck with electronics though. I fried a MacBook once with a 3rd party charger but otherwise made many upgrades to them over the years with ease. Now I opt for the solder everything in there so it's as small as possible option and run a tower at home.

Bro, the dude's comment is correct. I'm not sure what you your aim is with your reply but it's kinda fucked up.

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Or maybe their designers take pride in what they do? Like I get it, apple bad yada yada, but why are you being such a massive tool on this thread? A guy admires the care taken for aesthetic design and you're just like "how many different ways can I shit on this guy?". You're unhelpful and unkind, and you should go and think about it a while.

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There Are a Lot of Apple's bots here

You try and put forward an intelligent response, but your personal issues with something completely unrelated to the subject in this thread caused you to shit on the op a bunch. You did. Denying it doesn't make it untrue. Maybe take whatever frustrations you've got on apple or whomever somewhere else, and where you have zero useful or relevant input, just stay away? How hard is it not to spit in someone else's food?

Ya, he was rude to you... After you were rude to him, so drop that right off.

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Same 😂

"I guess if you like glue and unrepairable scrap metal"

It's this you? Because whoever this guy is, he's being a cunt for nothing. Sorry if it isn't you, but it sure does look like you... He's got the same name and everything.

Again, the guy is appreciating an aesthetic quality of a product he likes, and your response is; it's trash, fuck you for liking it.

Don't you dare tell me I'm sitting up drama when this is your opening response? The fucking hypocrisy man. Jesus Christ.

I can hear the clipping on the Clear at high volumes if I go specifically looking for it with test tones or very sub-bassy tracks. These aren't crazy volumes but they are well above what I would actually listen at. I actually thought it was broken when I first got it as it clipped on pink noise (which is bass-weighted) at a loud but not extreme volume.

I never however get it in actual listening, an this includes sub-bass heavy tracks and using Oratory's Harman EQ which has +8.6dB in the bass. So while I can certainly understand why it could be an issue, it's not for my listening volumes, on my specific unit.

Focal say they do this deliberately for dynamics, I think the idea is the diaphragm is very free in its movement but has a hard limit for excursion. I can't say, but the Focal Clear does subjectively seem to have great dynamics, great sense of slam.

I'm surprised how small the speaker is compared to the size of the housing.

You can't just say that when you don't understand something

Pretty nice! I wonder how it would perform in another headphone?

That glue is very upsetting.

I wish I had a set of APP's to test but I'm fairly sure that a a pair of KZ ZS10's on TWS adaptors ($50 total cost) would wipe the floor with them. Has anyone here been able to do a comparison at all?

That would depend a lot on the TWS adapter too. Aren’t the fiio ones one of the better ones that are actually TWS? Those are pretty pricey to my knowledge too.

Regardless, you know what apple is. You know you’re paying their ridiculous R&D costs and getting some weird features you’ll never use. You’ve heard it all but Apple stuff just does the job that’s their whole marketing. Sometimes it does it’s job pretty well and that’s fine.

I don’t even know if I’d agree on the KZs, plenty of great iems out there that might wipe the floor with APPs but that’s purely sound wise.

You gotta remember in the bluetooth space, they’re just as much tech as they are traditional headphones. Tons of compromises made, but they’re also a lot more complicated. Also remember you aren’t getting a transparency mode, a pocketable case, a low profile bud, good battery life, ANC, spatial audio, multi device pairing, etc.

It really depends on the use case. APPs pricing has had tons of promos even as their flagship TWS bud, they’re a compelling purchase at the $175~ CAD pricepoint but they’re not for everyone. If you just want a good pair of TWS, the option you mentioned is a cool way to have some repairability and potentially great sound but do you think most people want to be messing around with that? I like audio and even I wouldn’t.

I truthfully don’t need anything amazing on the go. The APPs are just fine and the convenience features make it a good purchase.

Anyone on this subreddit talking about headphones is in the minority, so it applies to all of us.

Distortion is definitely an issue. Bass just sounds different on my 650s than it does on my LCD-Xs (after eq). It has this softness / fuzziness to it - and when you look at the distortion measurements it makes perfect sense.

Hahaha better to leave it closed

This is pretty normal with dynamic drivers if you've ever opened one up. It's mostly the planars which get huge.

That's very impressive. Better than even most planars. However that tuning horrible. Worse than Audeze's.

Well yeah when the price is two to three times the competitors they have to find something to spend the money on (your money).

>realistically noone is going to EQ to a point where the distortion starts playing a role

and then there's audeze shipping their isine and lcd i series with wonkyass tunings and fixes them with brute force +- 16 dB EQ in their cables lol

A company is made in order to get money dude, idk if you knew that, but praise doesn’t have anything to do about a company being good or bad, ALL companies doesn’t care about you, don’t fool yourself…

That's what people believe in. Apple can literally shit unfixable shit on some peoples face, and people will still say "hey at least they are trying".

Apple is not trying, they are doing the opposite. Don't apologize for them, that's how they get away with it.

I don’t care that they don’t care about me and only care about their money, we’re saying that their internals are beautiful and extremely well designed, get off your high horse and perhaps you will be able to enjoy the little things in life a bit more.

Did they install a malicious chip that serial match just about every component on the phone so you can't swap those out on your own?

I don't think so.

Don't be fooled. That's for the media.

This self repair shit is a joke. It will be more expensive for you to DIY on the most cases than to do it at their place. This service is simply there so apple can appear to be on the right side of the story and fool you and me into believe that they believe in "eco friendliness" bullshit they do. They do it for a tax break, they do it so they can lure you into buying their phone with less guilt because appearantly, they allow you to fix your own phone so you can save the planet. They do it for the money, don't get it wrong.

Problem is. They are not. They did it because it benefits their public image so more people can buy their phones with less guilt.

Apple is still anti consumer, more so than the other companies that is blatent about it. Apple is fooling you into a wrong set of belief of their company. It's decietful, and in my eyes even worse than a company that just says fuck the consumers like John deree. John Deree made it clear that it doesn't want to play nice with you so you can choose to not buy their shit. Apple however is trying to trick you into believing that they are changing while they crank their productions up while everyone is fooled, buying their unrepariable, condom-like hunks of junk. That's a smart business stragety to make money, but it sure is a scummy one.

Honestly, you can get better at repairs. My first screen repair is hot garbage to be brutally honest, but it's on a 5 year old xiaomi phone that's my mom's backup so it doesn't matter as much. And then I gotten better at it and learnt to use better glue and better technique. The LG V60 that I used to use (before I handed it to my uncle) had a DIY replacement screen, I was really proud of it as it's all still waterproof too because used the B7000 glue instead of superglue.

It takes a bit of skill, but having an option is always better.

Yeah but it's a pain in the ass to reapir. Most eletronics have glue or hot pressure to support the components and made it thin. Until this days they haven't figured out what's screw job

Tbf their hardware externals look very close to perfection too.

that's also shitty but not every android phone manufacturer does that glue thing either.

Everyone's arguing about distortion and repairability, but the reason I could not buy the Max is that horrible compression. Ergonomically excellent, but sounds like a tin can (demo unit paired with an iPad at Best Buy).

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Do they actually sound any good for the price?

You succeeded. He deleted his comments.

Do you all like the ear pads though? Many people seem to have allergies to them.

Honestly it's probably the same stuff every other company uses but Apple is very well known for sourcing Black versions of everything for their internals

So they probably just said "We need material for our Headphone Diaphragms.... Can we get that in Black?"

Is it a 40mm driver?

That's what always confused me about apple hardware. Why put effort into making it look so good if it's never meant to be shown?

They know at some point it's going to be taken apart, and being stylish on all fronts is part of their brand image. But also, I think the apple engineers are likely perfectionists of sorts and want everything to be neat and tidy. It's mostly the black PCBs. It costs marginally more, but it's worth it to apple.

Every phone is glued together. That's how phones are made now.

I'm talking about the battery, not the phone. Serviceable parts shouldn't be glued.

its biocellulose, or you could throw the diaphragm in a mass spectrometer

Maybe giving an impartial and helpful response to the topic at hand instead of letting your hatred towards Apple get the best of you would be better?

He needs to held Apple accountable!!

That's fair. I hate when stuff are glued together too but at least that can be remedied with a hair dryer. I havent taken apart a samsung before (only xiaomi and LG as that's the two brands I buy) and by far all of them have pull tabs on battery glues which is pretty easy to deal with.