Submitted by Lelouch25 t3_z6q68j in headphones
klogg4 t1_iy2vry2 wrote
Reply to comment by Lelouch25 in My JDS Atom amp on high gain sounds MUCH wider with Planar headphones? by Lelouch25
>Lots of dongle dacs paired headphones when the cheap ones only output 45mW.
I only use <2mW with my Beyer DT990 250 ohm and AKG K612 which are much harder to drive than your planars. Not mentioning Sennheiser HD650 (they're relatively easy to drive). It's because I don't really listen to music on a volume above 90dB. If you listen to music on reasonable volume levels, you're doing the same.
> Then there’s a bunch of people who just don’t understand planars.
There's a lot more people who don't understand physics. Which is scarier.
Let me repeat that once again: power means volume and only volume. Sound pressure level, if you mind. You may even use a hi-fi amplifier for speakers to drive headphones, but if you listen to them on reasonable levels, you will still use 0.5-1mW out of 100000 available.
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy2x6l2 wrote
Nope. Not how any of that works. AMP isn’t just about volume. Under powering headphones make them sound thin.
Like yeah if you listen to them really low, you probably don’t even care to drive them fully. 🤣
klogg4 t1_iy2xkog wrote
> Under powering headphones make them sound thin.
So you want to say that you get different frequency response when you consume the same 1mW out of 40mW amp and out of 2W amp, while both having 0 ohm output impedance. Interesting. People trying to argue with physics is always interesting.
> Like yeah if you listen to them really low,
If 90 dB is low for you then I feel bad for your hearing.
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy2xuru wrote
Yeah that’s what I’m saying, they sound different. Listening in 90dB on lower power vs higher power amp makes a difference.
There’s a min amount of power needed to fully drive the headphones. Can you really not hear the difference between your 2mW source? …If at 90dB you believe you only use 2mW, then why would different do headphones come with different impedance and ohms.
Like if that were the case, try them plugged into old laptops or tablets that have even less than your dongle Dac.
😅
If you watched any reviewer, at some point they talk about when a pair of headphones is under driven, certain amps seemingly not being able to drive a headphone even though on paper they should.
Man this is something you can test out yourself, just by plugging your headphones into different sources. You’re giving me the impression that you’ve never heard your 250ohm powered headphones properly powered. 🥲
kazuviking t1_iy2yv0a wrote
Have you ever heard of Fletcher Munson Curve? The is no power scaling ffs only bullshit. When you know physics you know how much a headphone will need.
The beyer DT990 needs 780mW to reach 94dBSPL but that is hearing damage territory oh and power requirement halves every 3dB. So for "normal" listening level you will never breach the 50mW range.
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy2zcvb wrote
All I’m saying is the headphone needs certain amount of mW to sound full. You can just use the headphone power calculator.
Would you not agree that 250ohms would sound thin under powered when used with an inadequate dongle Dac?
Klogg4 is saying he powers his 250ohm headphone with 40mW amp?
kazuviking t1_iy3046y wrote
No headphone power calculators are super accurate online. The beyers need voltage and not current so voltage limited dongles might not work for your listening level.
That 40mW amp is capable of delivering 1VRMS and that is enough to listen at 65dBSPL with loudness peaks reaching 82dBSPL. More than enough if you listen normally.
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy30ckg wrote
Oh thanks for clearing that up.
I’ve tried my Sundara on my Dragonfly Black into the phone and even at higher volume it sounded thin.
I bought a 3.5mm to RCA to amp the Dragonfly Black and it instantly sounded full.
That’s what I mean.
Is under powered headphone not a thing?
kazuviking t1_iy313ji wrote
The sundara is just built differently since that needs a lot of voltage but while being low impedance and most will struggle with that requirement.
MachineTeaching t1_iy42xsk wrote
>Would you not agree that 250ohms would sound thin under powered when used with an inadequate dongle Dac?
Ohms are literally only half of the equation. It's impedance and sensitivity that determine the power demands.
For example, the popular Beyerdynamic DT 990 comes in a bunch of variants, the 32 Ohm and 600 Ohm variants both need the same power because the 600 Ohm one has higher sensitivity.
klogg4 t1_iy2yqk4 wrote
> Yeah that’s what I’m saying, they sound different.
Do you have an instrumentally or experimentally measured prove for this statement? ABX with an external switch or smth? No? I'm not surprised.
> Can you really not hear the difference between your 2mW source? …
I'm immune to this shit. But if you're interested, I currently have MOTU M4 with integrated ~20mW headphone amp and a Topping L70 which is max 7.5W I think (I got it because I didn't care much about what to buy, it was balanced and had pre-amp mode which is a desirable combo for me). No difference between them aside from Topping being insanely loud. Planars, dynamics, Audezes, Beyers - doesn't matter. Tried other devices, no difference as well.
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy2z3fq wrote
Wow that is really interesting 🧐 indeed. Under powering headphones is something likely everyone experiences.
But sure if you’re happy your experience than more power to you🤷♂️
imsolowdown t1_iy314f7 wrote
Maybe instead of listening to stupid YouTubers trying to get you to buy expensive shit, you should actually learn how amplifiers and headphones work.
Power = volume. There is no such thing as an “underpowered headphone sound”. The only thing that happens when a headphone is underpowered is that it sounds too quiet. You will never get a “thin sound” from not having enough power. It’s just physics.
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy31rdq wrote
Ok so it’s not 100% due to power. So some headphones have more resistance.
“Impedance is a specification used to show the headphone's resistance to the electrical current.”
“Headphones with higher impedance (25 ohms and over, approximately) demand more power to deliver high audio levels.”
—-that’s why I thought it was due to power.
I found this comment to be useful.
“Planar magnetics affect the output voltage uniformly due to the fixed impedance, which means that the result should just be a shift in voltage by a factor x. “
Personally: There’s definitely some sound coming out of headphones when they aren’t driven correctly.
And that sound, to me, is very compressed or thin.
imsolowdown t1_iy32idq wrote
It’s not due to anything because it’s not a real effect. You are hearing things. That’s how powerful the placebo effect can be.
There is absolutely no scientific basis for the stuff you are claiming here. Unless you are using a broken amplifier, you cannot drive a headphone “incorrectly”. If you don’t give it enough power, you won’t get enough volume. That’s it. Nothing else changes.
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy32po8 wrote
But I can plug in planars into a dongle Dac, and have enough volume.
imsolowdown t1_iy330ad wrote
Exactly. Do you want to believe the science or do you want to believe stupid people trying to get you to click on their affiliate links so you buy expensive shit that you don’t need so that they can get their cut?
There is a LOT of false information and myths in this hobby and you wouldn’t be able tell what’s what until you learn about how headphones and amps actually work.
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy343ql wrote
Yeah but I found the sound signature to be lacking lows. —confirming what some of these reviewers say.
imsolowdown t1_iy355y9 wrote
Those reviewers don’t really know any more than you do. None of them are engineers or physicists.
klogg4 t1_iy3320u wrote
>So some headphones have more resistance
Which means they will output less power at the same output voltage, because current will be less. That's why amps give less power when they drive higher impedance headphones, because power equals voltage times current (P=V*I). THAT'S physics.
The trick here is how much power you REALLY need. Amp needs to give more power with tougher headphones - that's reasonable, but if I draw 0.2 mW with AKG K371 and need 1 mW when I switch to Beyer DT990 250 ohm, that's not a big deal.
​
>“Headphones with higher impedance (25 ohms and over, approximately) demand more power to deliver high audio levels.”
"High audio level" means higher volume, not higher quality.
How much power do headphones need? You check sensitivity for that. For example my AKG K612 sound as loud as 91 dB when you give them 1 mW. The trick here is 91 dB being loud enough for having a blast to your favourite track.
And despite people saying planars need a lot of power it's usually the opposite - Audeze LCD-2 for example is one of the easiest headphones to drive that I ever borrowed from people (lol). While Beyer DT880 600 ohm is definitely the toughest.
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy33gi9 wrote
Right, so headphones do need a certain power to drive them because some have more resistance. Therefore when they aren’t provided with enough power it can be considered “under-powered”.
Is it taboo to say under powered? Or that they don’t sound “good” when under powered?
Am I wrong to describe the sound of an under powered headphone?
klogg4 t1_iy33miv wrote
They're only under-powered if YOU don't have enough VOLUME with your gear. It has nothing to do with the sound quality (usually... there's a little exception that I doubt you experienced yourself).
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy33w25 wrote
But it isn’t always volume. There are cases where I can get sufficient volume but found the sub-bass smoothed or rolled-off.
Or you’d rather say the amount of volume isn’t high enough to render the mids or lows?
I can get sufficient amount of volume with my 250ohm DT880 Pros from amps not rated for 250 ohms. **but it doesn’t sound good.
klogg4 t1_iy34tvd wrote
- The thing about "driving headphones" came out of the impedance matching thing, which also appeared in the speaker world where more powerful amps obviously had less output impedance. It's not the thing with most modern gear because most headphone amps have almost 0 ohm output impedance. Also, impedance matching isn't needed with planar headphones because their frequency response is not dependant on amp output impedance. With dynamic headphones you get MORE midbass ~100 hz and MORE treble ~10 khz when impedances are NOT matched, which is not what you want because you get muddier and more piercing sound.
This is the reason why my MOTU M4 headphone output sounds the same as my Topping L70 - it's a weak output, but the output impedance is 0 ohm; - It's a rare thing but it happens with my MOTU M4: it clips the wave when the max power is exceeded. It lets you have a louder sound but it obviously becomes distorted. Of course this is not the case with these fancy external amps like JDS Atom, it's just not possible there.
Lelouch25 OP t1_iy35h74 wrote
That is very informative and thank you for staying on this, as it is an issue I’ve come across.
From other forums and reviews, I’ve learned that some He6SE can be driven to greater effect with 6Watts, much more than spec.
I also experience this with my Sundara as 300mW is sufficient but 1W sounds better. Which is why I asked if the 1060C could be driven better.
And it doesn’t seem to be “distortion”, but perhaps 🤔 it could be considered that after all.
klogg4 t1_iy35pgf wrote
I'm out :/
But one last time - aside from the two specific cases I said above - POWER. HAS. NOTHING. TO. DO. WITH. THE. SOUND. QUALITY!
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