They aren't that good even for the price for vocals. They are pretty grainy unless you have a totl speaker amp sitting around in vocals and always present them in this odd way where dead center of the center blob is less loud than it's edges, giving a "behind a box" feel to the vocalist.

Oh I know, but mind you before headphones got really popular like they have people were still actually saying how the bass on 650’s was still good for those genres and people said this just isn’t a headphone for BASSheads. As if wanting a headphone that can produce deep bass makes someone a basshead, as opposed to wanting the bass over pronounced for fun. It just wasn’t accurate advice from the community back then and you can’t get information on soundstage or imagining in a sound signature curve (or whatever that response curve thing is called). People talk about how great the headphone is at what it does but its really made clear about what it can’t do. At least back when I was buying headphones in like 2015. Its a great can for what it does I just didn’t want someone to regret their first high end purchase for a can that can’t do it all regardless of how well.