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booksandmints t1_ir94nej wrote

There isn’t a single source of English. The current archaeological/anthropological/genetic thinking is that there was a gradual, but eventually very large, migration (not an invasion) of Saxons and other peoples from around that area to what is now Britain, and they brought their language and customs with them. The Vikings brought theirs, and so did the Normans. The language we speak now is an amalgamation of quite a lot of others. The genetic research being done for the Thousand Ancient Genomes Project is very interesting, and some of the preliminary results have been released regarding the Saxons (it seems to be quite a touchy subject and the name “Anglo-Saxon” has acquired negative connotations in the US which has trickled over to us), although Covid slowed quite a lot down obviously. I’m really looking forward to hearing more results from the TAGP!

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Skaldskatan t1_ir9jqzw wrote

I am not English, but why would Anglo-Saxon have negative connotations? I am fairly interested in European historian and like to watch ie Dan Davis and “survive the jive” but have never heard anyone mention this.

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booksandmints t1_ir9ko2k wrote

Until maybe two years ago, I hadn’t heard of it either (I live in the UK). It seems that it has mostly been a problem in the US, where the term “Anglo Saxon” came to gain white supremacist meanings, along with nationalism and racial purity, etc. Abhorrent, of course. But in the UK (and I suppose parts of Europe?) “Anglo Saxon” broadly refers to the time period between the end of the Roman period and the beginning of the Viking Age, and doesn’t have the same horrible meaning that it does in the US. It was news to me when I first heard about that, but I’ve since read more. In her recent book Buried, Dr. Alice Roberts has a whole postscript section about the use of the term and how its meaning has changed over time across the world.

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calamitouscamembert t1_ir9mzl6 wrote

Some people probably say it as another word for white British (or of that ancestry), so it's probably because of who is or isn't using that terminology.

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Fit_Sandwich9551 t1_ir9nfzx wrote

In the U.S. "Anglo-Saxon" identity connotes racial purity and is a longstanding racist concept and buzzword.

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Uptown_NOLA t1_ir9uhtn wrote

I'm here in the states and am well read and have never heard that as well, so you're not crazy.

edit:clarity

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cuicocha t1_irao0iw wrote

Another well-read American here. This is the first I ever heard of Anglo-Saxon being a racist buzzword (as described here). Not denying that it exists, just that the racist buzzword use is not how I'm used to hearing it used. The racist use seems illogical to me because the term excludes Germanic or Nordic heritage, which modern racists usually are fine with.

I've heard Anglo-Saxon used in a few senses in American writing, none of which make any sense or actually pertain to Anglo-Saxon ethnicity (i.e., not Norman, Norse, or Celtic):

  • In global politics, "Anglo-Saxon world" basically meaning the close ties between US, UK, Australia, NZ, and Canada
  • Especially in the northeastern US, describing white families with British colonial roots, as opposed to heritage in post-independence immigrants (as in White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, "WASP"), usually with the implication of upper class, "respectability", education, and a certain uptightness or reserve
  • In the southwestern US, "Anglo" meaning English-speaking Americans with roots elsewhere in the US, as opposed to the hispanic and indigenous people who were already there before the Mexican-American war (not common anymore in my experience).
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elmonoenano t1_irbw950 wrote

Back in the hey day of "scientific" racism there were a lot of claims that were made about Anglo-Saxon people vis a vis other groups. Most of it is pretty easily rejected, even by the 30. Just better tools of linguistic analysis, genetics, and basic standards in stuff like anatomy got people to reject stuff like phrenology, which had served as the basis for a lot it.

But, the racism associated with the term got worked into a lot of stuff, like immigration law and the medical profession. It mostly now is associated with stuff like keeping Jewish people from receiving refuge from the Nazis or slavery or sterilizing people of color or lower classes or colonialism.

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GronakHD t1_ir9egmr wrote

English is a mashup of languages, interesting reading about where words came from

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booksandmints t1_ir9fo0v wrote

Yes, I find it fascinating! The names of places in the UK is also very interesting when you start picking them apart. There are a lot of places near where I currently live that date from the Anglo-Saxon period. It ties into the whole language thing quite nicely and just adds to the richness of the landscape for me. I’m sure the same is true of the rest of the world too, and I’d love to hear those stories, but I see these place names every day so they’re more in my mind.

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GronakHD t1_ir9fw87 wrote

I’m in Scotland so we have a lot of original brittonic/celtic names. Load of places called DunSomehting, Dundee, Dunbar, Dumbarton, dun means forified hill. Dumbarton means fortified hill of the brittons. Also Aber is common, like Aberdeen, but even in Wales you can find places called AberSomething. Then theres the buroughs/burgh, loads of places called burg or berg in germany/scandinavia. Really fascinating!

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booksandmints t1_ir9jrb1 wrote

I can definitely vouch for the Welsh names, because I grew up there. In Wales Aber means the mouth of, as in, the mouth of a river. So Abertawe (Swansea) means the mouth of the river Tawe.

I lived in Scotland for a while and never made the Dun connection, but that makes so much sense now you’ve said it!

I find all this stuff really interesting. I did a degree in history and I’ve got lots of books on words and the history of words, sayings, and place names. Fascinating!

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redneckhotmess t1_ir9sed0 wrote

You should see it here in the states, where we just stole our town names from other countries! We have London's, Sidney, Russia, Kensongton, Aberdeen, Kenmare; there are bergs and burgs and boros galore. Unfortunately, nobody bothered to steal any of the classy sounding names like Strafford-on-Avon . and I have no clue how we ended up with a city called Intercourse 🤣

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PA_Golden_Dino t1_ira8d9t wrote

Because Blue Ball and Bird-In-Hand, PA (neighboring towns) were lonely. Please keep in mind that once you go through Intercourse, you end up in Paradise, PA.

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Uptown_NOLA t1_ir9u9u6 wrote

I've always had a theory that the settlers. while very hard working, kind of ran out of names by the time they got to the Mississippi river and just started repeating everything.

In Texas they have Palestine, which is named after Palestine, Illinois, not the original place. lol

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Wintersbone7 t1_irgvgmh wrote

After the 13 original colonies, th new states were named either by the Spanish or after local indigenous populations who then quickly displaced

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Uptown_NOLA t1_iri99rm wrote

I was speaking more to names of municipalities which a lot of seem to simply get repeated in state after state.

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primalbluewolf t1_ir9n7e8 wrote

>dun means forified hill

I knew there was some use to be had out of reading Katherine Kerr!

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blueshark27 t1_ir9teqb wrote

As is nearly every other language, French is a mix of Gaulish, germanic Frankish, Latin and more. Yet no one tries to deny France existing to the extent that happens with England/English as a nation.

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ElricAvMelnibone t1_ira5x8z wrote

I think it's just people who speak English only and think it's a uniquely crazy language lol, anyone who speaks anything can tell you about loan words, language families, weird grammar rules and all that

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GronakHD t1_ir9zeag wrote

Yes. I guess just because it happened more recently than other languages it’s more interesting.

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