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fiendishrabbit t1_irs3kdq wrote

Reply to comment by 2Mike2022 in Has metal ever been used in ancient/medieval fortifications or any equivalent by HDH2506

Steel no. Bronze and copper were frequently used to plate gates. Partially decorative, partially to make it harder to cut through or burn down the gate.

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2Mike2022 t1_irssm17 wrote

It still has to be smelted and forged and at the time in pieces small enough to be man handled. Even during the American civil war when metals were easier to source no one tried that because it had far more value used in other places in the fight. What would you rather have a four foot by 8 foot sheet of metal or an extra thousand arrows.

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Viewfromthe31stfloor t1_irt2pe9 wrote

We had two ironclad ships in the US civil war. Plus many cannons. I’m not sure what you mean.

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drschwen t1_irt97ng wrote

The US Civil War famously happened after the industrial revolution took place.

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BenRandomNameHere t1_irt4os4 wrote

I think they crossed multiple thoughts...

A sheet of metal in the civil war has nothing to do with arrows...

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Viewfromthe31stfloor t1_irtdjkl wrote

They were saying no one made big sheets of metal during the civil war. No clue about why they said arrows

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flukz t1_irtecqb wrote

Bruh, the Union had over 40 and the Confederates over 20. Both sides had plans and began construction on many more when the war ended. Two, you got me laughing on a history sub.

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2Mike2022 t1_irtdxem wrote

This post is about covering castle walls with metal to make them stronger they had arrows.

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JazzlikeScarcity248 t1_irtbkfp wrote

The athlit ram was a single cast copper and that thing weight 1,000 pounds. Hell I think most roman naval rams were single cast. If they could fortify ships that way, why not doors and buildings?

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BobTheAverage t1_irtekpe wrote

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_ram >The Athlit ram consists of a single bronze casting weighing 465 kilograms (1,025 lb). It is 226 centimetres (89 in) long with a maximum width of 76 centimetres (30 in) and a maximum height of 96 centimetres (38 in).  ... The casting of an object as large as the Athlit ram was a complicated operation at the time, and would have been a considerable expense in the construction of a war galley.

The ram was MUCH smaller than castle walls. It was 7' long by 2.5' around. A castle wall could easily be 10' tall and several feet thick. A 10' section of wall would need maybe 6 times that much metal and castle walls are far longer than 10'. Metal walls would get wildly expensive very quickly.

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JazzlikeScarcity248 t1_irtfbt0 wrote

Parts of the walls and doors could have been reinforced too.

Honestly I was just fighting back at the idea that large single cast objects did not exist till the industrial revolution.

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BobTheAverage t1_irth3dj wrote

Your example isn't that big though, not compared to a castle. Doors were sometimes made of metal. Portcullis

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Yeangster t1_irtidiz wrote

Bronze was easier (as in actually possible, given technologies at the time) to form into large homogenous pieces like that, but let’s not forget that bronze was really expensive. One of the incentives for developing him iron casting technology in the 18th century was that while bronze cannons were better than iron cannons, bronze was way more expensive.

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2Mike2022 t1_irte8xg wrote

Did you even read the original post. Its about covering the walls not just the doors.

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JazzlikeScarcity248 t1_irteysk wrote

How are large, single cast objects not relevant to this conversation?

>Did you even read the original post.

You forget a question mark. Did you even reread your comment before posting it?

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skoomski t1_irtdqaa wrote

You can cast bronze and copper which is not nearly as difficult as forging. You can see long pieces of metal here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portcullis

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War_Hymn t1_iryagcr wrote

Yeah, but copper and tin are much less common (hence, more expensive) metals than iron. That's why most cannons were cast iron instead of bronze, despite the latter being a safer material to make cannon tubes out of.

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DirkBabypunch t1_irtjze0 wrote

You don't usually forge bronze and copper, and making plates out of them is just a matter of casting one, which should be trivial to do.

And by the time period OP is asking about, arrowheads are iron or steel, so copper cladding a gate is irrelevant to their production, except maybe for the guys it takes to pour the casting.

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War_Hymn t1_iryaoms wrote

Actually, cast bronze would be pretty weak as is - some forging or hammering was usually done to strengthen and harden bronze tools and items.

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DirkBabypunch t1_iryb4qg wrote

That can be easily done once the plate is formed, and they obviously knew about the need to do it.

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Nulovka t1_irtlxm3 wrote

Doesn't the Parthenon have two huge bronze doors? At least the one in Nashville does. I can't seem to find reference to whether the original had them.

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