Comments
alfredpsmurtz t1_iuee5t5 wrote
Didn't know the wrote it twice fact I read the book many, many years ago as I found TE Lawrence an intriguing character who came out of a unassuming position to become a leader of so many disparate groups in the region.
anunderdog t1_iuefl0s wrote
Yes. His story is fascinating. I saw David Lean's film when I was young and was inspired by it. The film is so much more exciting, but the book is obviously more accurate and insightful. I was quite disappointed when I found out Lawrence wasn't actually in the charge of Aquaba because he accidentally shot his camel 🐪
jeffersonairmattress t1_iugtm9z wrote
Great story. Brough ending.
Jackson3125 t1_iuhjbo7 wrote
Brough?
boimmiob t1_iuhnqft wrote
Insider Joke. He died riding his motorcycle, a Brought Superior
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MRCHalifax t1_iues61v wrote
It was left at Reading Station while he was changing trains. So he rewrote it from memory, having burned all of his notes. But it was a mess. So he rewrote it again. And then he did a proof-printing, and then substantially revised it. And then he put out a limited edition version that people could actually get, but that put him deep in debt. So he cut out half of that version for the version that went out to the public.
It was not a smooth process by any means, and it means that there is no definitive version of the text, even among the works that weren't lost.
anunderdog t1_iuewifh wrote
Wow! I read he left it in a cab but either way... That is dedication. If I found a huge manuscript like that I would definitely try to find the owner. Someone probably just binned it. It's a huge book, and dry as toast so I'm not surprised it wasn't a best seller but what an adventure. I wonder why he burned his notes? Any ideas?
MRCHalifax t1_iuexm5h wrote
He suffered from mental health issues. I suspect it’s related to that, but I’m no expert on him or on mental health, so take that with a massive grain of salt.
Jackson3125 t1_iuhjggo wrote
He also had a flare for the dramatic.
cynicalspacecactus t1_iuhxoib wrote
I believe what you are referring to are the limited and trade editions of Revolt in the Desert, which although were abridged versions of Seven Pillars of Wisdom, were not published under that name, so should not be considered competing with the whole work for the definitive status.
ButterflyAttack t1_iuf13fk wrote
I didn't find it tedious at all. Fascinating look at the period, the war, the overlapping of cultures, and Lawrence's own flawed and lacerated self. Just IMO, but wanted to make the point that it's worth reading.
anunderdog t1_iuf29wl wrote
Absolutely it's worth reading, I in no way meant to imply otherwise!
BorisTheMansplainer t1_iufgspk wrote
Right. How can you find a book with a scene where the author rearranges bodies in the moonlight tedious? The entire thing was engrossing and often quite haunting.
Tiako t1_iuflh8g wrote
I could imagine someone expecting a simple war memoir would find it a tough read, but if you want a somewhat fictionalized account of a very strange Englishman who was really Working Through Stuff then it is a strong recommendation.
Ripheus-33 t1_iughd59 wrote
Sounds fascinating but why did you capitalize Working Through Stuff, is that a reference to something in the book?
Teantis t1_iugjiom wrote
He had PTSD really bad people think and may or may not have been raped by Turkish soldiers along with all the other bad shit he went through. He was known for being pretty weird after wwi also.
Ripheus-33 t1_iugvivc wrote
Oh my gosh, that’s so sad
ELI-PGY5 t1_iuh65hw wrote
I’m 80% sure the Turkish soldier thing is Lawrence’s homoerotic slash fiction, so don’t feel too bad for him. Controversial area, there is some decent scholarship on this issue.
hellraisinhardass t1_iugp9tn wrote
I too found parts of it very tedious. Some of his writing, particularly descriptions of the sights, sounds and even smells of the desert and war are some of the best ever written. But his mixes in entire chapters of political discussions and observations about the interactions between different tribes and colonial powers that are almost impossible for a causal reader to choke down.
Beargrease28 t1_iugimbp wrote
The Audiobook read by Roy McMillan is fantastic.
cogwerk t1_iuhqnnj wrote
Would you be able to recommend a general history for some accurate background? I want to place personal accounts and autobiographies in context, and I loved the film and want to dig into this
ButterflyAttack t1_iuifjgn wrote
I'm afraid I'm a fairly promiscuous reader rather than an expert. I usually have multiple books on the go at any one time and flit across genres and periods. Perhaps /r/askhistorians may be able to recommend something.
cynicalspacecactus t1_iui0vla wrote
I can hardly believe that someone who has actually read the unabridged book in print to have not found much of the book tedious. Much of the 700+ page text is hard to track as names for Arab persons TE encountered are introduced throughout the book but the ones that have already been introduced are not kept constant. Long passages are then composed of flowery descriptions of high level descriptions of conversations, between persons referred to with non-constant names.
ButterflyAttack t1_iuif42q wrote
I've actually read it several times. Certainly I preferred to return to some parts more than others but I didn't find it at all tedious. TBF I also really like Moby Dick, which many people seem to feel is unreadable - so maybe I'm something of an outlier.
cynicalspacecactus t1_iuiig5x wrote
Fair enough. I read it halfway twice before getting through it from the beginning on the third attempt. It is a beautifully written book and I dont think I've ever read a work written with a similar character, even if it did sometimes have a hard time holding my focus.
Painting_Agency t1_iueilz6 wrote
> seven pillars of wisdom
SirBaggyballs t1_iufpmei wrote
Great song, easily one of my favorite from Sabaton.
lostindanet t1_iufvl5z wrote
not my style, but respect the style and quality. also, i listen to Sabaton everytime Indy Neidell does a special with them :D
SirBaggyballs t1_iugcj56 wrote
It is different than most of their stuff but suites my tastes quite well, up there with Attack of the Dead Men and Resist and Bite for favorite Sabaton songs.
Nadamir t1_iuihmc0 wrote
I run a DND campaign in a world where there’s an important temple called The Twelve Pillars of Knowledge.
When my players asked about it, I told them it comprised Five Pillars of Intelligence and Seven Pillars of Wisdom.
No one got the joke. I was disappointed in them.
pydry t1_iufcle5 wrote
It was in the movie too.
JohnnyBoy11 t1_iuftkhy wrote
I read the first page and it became very apparent in my mind of how highly he viewed Scripture. I put the book down and felt that I couldn't approach the book until I had inculcated that same level in order to respect the work.
HuntytheToad t1_iug3gyv wrote
In the preface of the Seven Pillars of Wisdom my takeaway was that he disapproved of the British actions there and that he generally wasn't happy with the turnout of those events. But it has been a few years since I read it, so perhaps my memory is off.
HistoriaNova t1_iug9imf wrote
If someone doesn't have the time to get through it, there's also the abridged version Revolt in the Desert, which is a good read.
tucci007 t1_iuh4i1z wrote
I have a 2nd edition of that book; it is a very good read, and a nice little volume.
MONKEH1142 t1_iuhod09 wrote
I have the 1926 edition. He describes his sense of duplicity in detail.
anunderdog t1_iuj5wia wrote
1926 edition! Very nice.
rookieseaman t1_iuhtqys wrote
I was gonna say anyone who knows anything about the man wouldn’t be surprised by this.
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KB_Sez t1_iugb0y3 wrote
Was about to say this. I think it was even alluded to in the David Lean film
ELI-PGY5 t1_iuh5pte wrote
Left it on a train actually.
EmilePleaseStop t1_iuhwev1 wrote
There was a whole movie about it, in fact
MillennialsAre40 t1_iuhxvmr wrote
There was a whole Young Indiana Jones episode about it in the 90s
Freestripe t1_iui16fm wrote
The last line of 7 pillars of wisdom "and all at once I realised how sorry I was".
moodRubicund t1_iueamtz wrote
"Revealed"? I thought everyone already knew that?
ReadinII t1_iueiqs0 wrote
Seems like it was a major plot point in the movie.
Gorazde t1_iugcoj5 wrote
In the movie, he's depicted as having been unaware of the Sykes–Picot Agreement and duped by his own side. In reality, he knew about it and was party himself to deceiving the Arabs.
Ariadnepyanfar t1_iugkuov wrote
And ashamed of his own part in that, so much so that he deliberately lived in obscurity after that.
LieverRoodDanRechts t1_iuejgzq wrote
Well, apparently they found a ‘lost’ chapter from his book where he is even more vocal about the issue.
DukeofVermont t1_iuemorh wrote
I was going to say the book felt like very critical of the UK, but in the "official" way where you can't call out or openly criticize your superiors.
A_Flamboyant_Warlock t1_iuepojp wrote
So like a less heavy metal book of Revelation?
Pure_Internet_ t1_iufaney wrote
Bit of a forced comparison but sure, similar enough.
Tiako t1_iufloez wrote
It feels like this is a case of a poorly worded title, something like "discovery of lost chapter sheds new light" etc etc would be be better.
hawkman1000 t1_iugf94q wrote
He turned down a knighthood because of it. Possibly the only person who ever turned one down.
aquaman501 t1_iugjqzq wrote
Hardly. There’s a long list.
theBigDaddio t1_iugqlcw wrote
Not only did he turn down knighthood, Peter O’Toole who played him in film also turned down knighthood. Yea I know, weird
Zerkezhi t1_iuhr3r3 wrote
At least 82 other people turned down the knighthood that Lawrence also turned down. See here: List_of_people_who_have_declined_a_British_honour#Knighthood_(Knight_Bachelor)
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hawkman1000 t1_iuhtbhq wrote
My bad, I thought I read that. I stand corrected.
peds4x4 t1_iuevznw wrote
Seems the guardian could not find any "news" to "bash Britain" so had to go back several decades.
BorisTheMansplainer t1_iufh245 wrote
There is clearly no shortage of contemporaneous content for that.
JohnnyBoy11 t1_iufswqm wrote
The lost chapter is being sold now for 65 grand, so yes, it's current.
Killer_radio t1_iuemf2y wrote
Wasn’t one of his motives for accelerating operations during the Arab revolt was so they’d (the Arabs) have a better negotiating position post war?
vertigo42 t1_iug05s0 wrote
Yes. Take Damascus before everyone else. So they have control and they have the power in negotiation.
hyponug t1_iugz9wq wrote
Actually the city was handed over to Australian forces before Lawrence and the Arab forces arrived. But they departed to pursue fleeing ottoman forces
will_scc t1_iuejdi9 wrote
Revealed? This was well known about. It's literally one the main facts about his life most people, who know about him, know.
Animal_Courier t1_iuek6en wrote
Lawrence even felt betrayed during the war based on what I’ve read, and choose to continue fighting for the Brits knowing damned well what that meant.
It was still the better of two options.
PicardTangoAlpha t1_iufoufi wrote
Gee, you saw the film too.
deepaksn t1_iugsq39 wrote
There was a film?
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Anderopolis t1_iuh2jqh wrote
A 3 hour long Mastodont of a slow burn that will leave you wondering just how many recordings of dustdevils are necessary to understand that arabia is a desert.
rookieseaman t1_iuhu0ko wrote
What film?
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RuskiLeader t1_iufbl0r wrote
TE Lawrence and the Arab revolts were during the First World War which gave us the messed up Middle Eastern borders we have today
LukeTheNoob t1_iufaynq wrote
Wrong world war.
Also the fact that the Arab states were up for grabs by whatever army controlled them when the war ended is kind of the point here. It was the British (and French) army that grabbed them.
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BigWuffleton t1_iugb3nz wrote
That's not at all how the peace process worked in the middle east after World War 2, they were mostly all British or French colonies and that didn't change after the peace treaties were signed.
Hell the Soviets had their army kicked out of Iran purely with diplomatic pressure, it wasn't so cut and dry as "wherever my armies are will be my puppets now"
Masek_Kiel t1_iueg72u wrote
No surprise there. Everyone interested in that man beyond watching the movie knew his opinion long ago.
TH3_R3D_QU33N t1_iuf6s5q wrote
Pretty sure it's even in the movie. So zero people who know who TE Lawrence was should be surprised by this.
GrimRiderJ t1_iuf8ezo wrote
Yep, I only know him from the movie, and clearly understood this point from it.
hewhoisneverobeyed t1_iufzreu wrote
Hardly a surprise.
You want a surprise? Here’s a surprise. Peter O’Toole was 6’2”. TE Lawrence? 5’5”.
Important? No. But it was a surprise, at least to me.
PSEOL t1_iuehguy wrote
I thought this was Trevor Lawrence for a second since the Jaguars played in the UK today and was very confused.
BigHero17 t1_iuf9lkc wrote
I was thinking Tight End and was just as confused.
Shitstaynes t1_iuftiww wrote
If your name ain't Travis Kelce, take your bitter shame elsewhere!
frontier_gibberish t1_iuexlni wrote
Its Sunday, its ok to have football on the brain
SatansPokerBuddy t1_iug3u5i wrote
no no, that's Q. B. Lawrence
Oscar_Dondarrion t1_iuex43f wrote
Yeah this has been known a long time, if you read virtually any account of the events Lawrence was involved in, it comes up
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ReasonableDowd t1_iugt7nm wrote
If you’re interested in Lawrence, WWI, middle east history, read Lawrence In Arabia by Scott Anderson. Best popular history book I’ve ever read.
maxtillion t1_iuguwcz wrote
Lawrence was an amazing warrior and writer, as well as an incredibly complex and conflicted person. There’s no substitute for reading Seven Pillars, but Scott Anderson’s grasp of WW1 complexities including Lawrence is pretty damn amazing too.
rookieseaman t1_iuhuav2 wrote
It baffles me that Lawrence is required reading more often in the west given his story can directly be tied to the current geopolitics of the Middle East. I’d always wondered growing up why some Muslim people hated the west so fiercely and there it is.
twizzjewink t1_iugrhob wrote
That was pretty obvious in Seven Pillars of Wisdom, as dry, and hard of a read it is; it spells out that British (or any really) Imperialism is a death-knell to those who are mired in between sacrifice for the many or the few. As the campaign progressed his awareness as to how far out he was from "British Rule" and that no way could he go back - and could only go forward and be a martyr for those wanted the wealth and power of a land they didn't want to give anything else up for.
IntentionFalse8822 t1_iuew9pn wrote
Why did he hide the chapter. It's not as if he wasn't fairly vocal about the issue after the war.
hughk t1_iuexope wrote
If you read about what happened post war, you will.know that he joined the military again, the RAF as a normal aircraftsman under an assumed name. He missed the order of the military life. He was assisted in this by Churchill who was a personal friend.
ktappe t1_iugkyl1 wrote
And that's why Lawrence is one of history's most interesting characters.
Ghonaherpasiphilaids t1_iugl7m8 wrote
Pretty sure I understood this when I was 7 years old and saw Lawrence of Arabia. This isn't a reveal. It's 100 year old news.
TheDefenseNeverRests t1_iuelcfi wrote
This read like a college football tweet until the last three words.
imapassenger1 t1_iuf1igu wrote
Anyone remember the Ralph Fiennes version, TV movie I think (90s?). His Lawrence was quite outspoken about it.
Bambi_One_Eye t1_iufaitl wrote
I keep reading that as Tight End Lawrence and getting confused
atn420 t1_iuf59jn wrote
He was a man of honor, actions, and his word, it’s how he won favor, friends & literal armies to fight alongside him. To have his honor stolen from him from behind his back by politicians is of no real surprise either. Fascinating man.
ELI-PGY5 t1_iuh9avj wrote
…according to his self-aggrandising, partially fictitious accounts.
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Security_Six t1_iuh2xko wrote
Trevor Lawrence felt bad for his poor performance in London and for some reason apologizes for the price of oil too
Edit: also he switched to a tight end...
Sansansio t1_iuf3y6y wrote
I'm spending too much time in the fantasy football sub. I couldn't think of a Tight End with a last name Lawrence.
Xander_Hamilton t1_iuf3yan wrote
What team does he play for?
I_AM_ACURA_LEGEND t1_iugnorp wrote
Somehow thought this was related to Trevor Lawrence’s comments after the London Jaguars game…
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two_good_eyes t1_iufq5sc wrote
I heard he bookmarked this on his browser:
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lionheart4life t1_iug1zls wrote
I thought this headline was Trevor Lawrence, thinking this after losing the game in the UK this morning.
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DoctorMindWar t1_iugardt wrote
Isn't this common knowledge? I know next to nothing about him, other the film and this fact
amitym t1_iuge418 wrote
"Revealed?" Come on.
rw258906 t1_iugqcuh wrote
Anyone have a link to the text?
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WolvoNeil t1_iuh1wvw wrote
I've always thought it was a bit naive to assume the Arabs would ever be given self rule.. if you draw a circle 3000km in radius around that part of the world in 1918 you pretty much only find one "self ruled" country, Ethiopia.
Its always felt a bit like mental gymnastics on his part to suggest he expected the British to just give up the Middle East post-war.
ImperatorRomanum t1_iuhpn0m wrote
A really good nonfiction book for anyone interested in this period: Lawrence In Arabia. Covers his story as well as the dazzling array of other operatives active in the area during the war: oilmen, Zionists, German agents…. Really fascinating.
Polyxeno t1_iui5rwx wrote
Revealed by reading any biography about him . . .
writtenbyrabbits_ t1_iuhohno wrote
Wasn't that pretty much the whole point of Lawrence oglf Arabia?
Nutcrackit t1_iuie7fd wrote
The post ww1 borders and colonization of the middle east has been the major cause of all the s he it the world has had to deal from that area since.
TheGolgafrinchan t1_iuiqfkl wrote
How did he feel about the promises and agreements of self-rule for Israel (the deal of which was completely butchered and led to the problems that we've seen in the region ever since)?
ArkyBeagle t1_iuj9mfm wrote
This ( that the promise was false ) was inevitable. The fall of the Ottoman Empire was simply too great of a power vacuum . I'd also posit that since Saudi Arabia contains the two most holy places in Islam, and that there is a requirement to take a Haj in Islam, it's all but contradictory, at the very least extremely difficult.
Fromkin's "A Peace to End All Peace" ( ISBN-13 : 978-0805088090 ) has a remarkable capacity to provide context and is still written as a middlebrow/popular/non-specialist work. Remarkable book.
StrongSNR t1_iuhe18o wrote
Well yeah, not only WW1 but also WW2. If it wasn't for the USSR and the USA, Churchil and the French would've kept their colonial empires. Kinda funny how propaganda works
Unidann t1_iugrsh3 wrote
Subjects of the British Empire were truly brainwashed that the British Empire would actually grant any non-White colony any hope of self-rule or determination, even a spy.
Kharjawy t1_iuh0soh wrote
They weren’t British colonies though. They allied with the British against the Ottomans.
Unidann t1_iuhr8l8 wrote
Thanks for the correction. Hindsight is everything but trusting one of the world's largest colonial empires at the time who had a habit of colonizing non-Whites through coercion was not a smart decision.
MONKEH1142 t1_iuhvpyp wrote
Swing and a miss - France ended Arab rule in Syria, Britain had inked a deal giving Faisal control. The Hejaz people's who supported the revolt would be ousted by the Saudis and Jordan is one of the most successful Arab countries. Faisal would go on to rule iraq until his death, the monarchy there being ended by Ba'ath and pan Arab nationalism.
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frayzn t1_iuhom7i wrote
Totally read that as “Tight End - Lawrence” at first and was trying to figure out what the rest of the title had to do with football.
thewoekitten t1_iui59u6 wrote
I read the headline before the subreddit name so I thought it was r/CFB and read it as “Tight end Lawrence felt bitter shame over the University of Kentucky’s false promises of Arab self rule”
cornjab50 t1_iuft6ir wrote
Lawrence was a tight end?
I_like_to_build t1_iuhwmam wrote
You know it's college football season, when going through my main feed, I read the headline and thought:
"I Didn't know that University of Kentucky had a tight end named Lawrance, and why the hell would he care about Arab self rule?"
anunderdog t1_iueb7cu wrote
This is hardly a big reveal. This has been known for decades. He alluded to it in the seven pillars of wisdom, which is very long and tedious but worth a read if you are interested in the history of the region. Also he wrote that book twice, because the first time he left the manuscript in the back of a taxi!