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Vessarionovich t1_ix5vvzl wrote

A truly moderate, benevolent regime!....tragically misunderstood by the millions of Cubans who have chafed under it all these years.

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Anglicanpolitics123 OP t1_ix63shw wrote

So apparently you missed the part where the majority of Cubans supported the Cuban revolution and also.....would protest when Castro pursued lighter sentences during the trials of the Cuban revolution.

Also....the whole reason for the failure of American attempts to overthrow Castro such as the Bay of Pigs was due to popular support that Castro had. The Office of the Historian in the U.S State Department explicitly states as such in their official records when speak about the reasons for why the Cuban embargo had to be put in place.

"Salient considerations respecting the life of the present Government of Cuba are:
1.
The majority of Cubans support Castro (the lowest estimate I have seen is 50 percent).
2.
There is no effective political opposition.
3.
Fidel Castro and other members of the Cuban Government espouse or condone communist influence.
4.
Communist influence is pervading the Government and the body politic at an amazingly fast rate.
5.
Militant opposition to Castro from without Cuba would only serve his and the communist cause.
6.
The only foreseeable means of alienating internal support is through disenchantment and disaffection based on economic dissatisfaction and hardship.
If the above are accepted or cannot be successfully countered, it follows that every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba. If such a policy is adopted, it should be the result of a positive decision which would call forth a line of action which, while as adroit and inconspicuous as possible, makes the greatest inroads in denying money and supplies to Cuba, to decrease monetary and real wages, to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government."_Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter American Affairs Mallory(April 6, 1960 Memorandum)

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Vessarionovich t1_ix8pt54 wrote

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>Also....the whole reason for the failure of American attempts to overthrow Castro such as the Bay of Pigs was due to popular support that Castro had.

Gee, I thought it might have had something to do with Soviet military assistance.

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the_grinning_cat t1_ix5z6j6 wrote

> tragically misunderstood by the millions of Cubans who have chafed under it all these years.

I wonder if the economic blockade instituted by the US and supported only by two countries in the world (USA and Israel) has something to do with this... I guess people want to leave their Home Country where they have free healtcare and education for no reason at all.

I'll propose you this: tell USA to completely abandon economic imperialism against Cuba, let the island trade freely with the whole world, and let's see in a couple of years how many people still want to leave. My guess: not many. And with the inevitable economic growth, most will want to return.

But hey, do they even teach about the economic blockade in American schools any more?

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Vessarionovich t1_ix8p8hm wrote

America's economic embargo of Cuba didn't prevent $billions in annual Soviet aid to Cuba throughout the 60s, 70s, and 80s, it didn't prevent the billions that came from Venezuala in the 90s and early 2000s, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the systemic political repression that has defined the Communist regime in Cuba since its inception.

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the_grinning_cat t1_ixd85sl wrote

Do you have any source on the "billions" of aid to Cuba from decades ago? But nevertheless, do you actually think that makes a dent in the argument? Aid for basic necesities, while useful and necesary, won't fix any of the problems caused by not being able to freely trade with the world. Which is what the USA and Israel prohibit Cuba to do. How far do you think Israel (to give an example of a similar sized country) would go with an economic blockade of the extension and duration that the cuban blockade has had?

> and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the systemic political repression that has defined the Communist regime in Cuba since its inception.

First of all, all countries have "political repression". For example, in the US political repression is strictly enforced against communists, and communist parties have historically been persecuted, criminalized and sabotaged by the FBI and the CIA. In many eastern europe "democracies" communist parties are outright outlawed. So don't talk about political repression as if it was something characteristic or unique to Cuba, when all burgouis democracy have it.

Second, economic embargo, and coup attempts in Cuba have everything to do with internal politics. The US has tried, since the inception of Cuba, as you said, to destroy the communist revolution. For that, it has tried assassinations (I guess assassinations are OK when the US does them!), coups, guerrillas, terrorism, propaganda campaigns, economic warfare, etcetera, etcetera.

How should a Country react against such persistent attempts to destroy it? Don't you think that it is necesary, for the survival of the revolution, to identify capitalist attempts at destruction and reactionary counter-revolution?

And the repression in Cuba is purely political. You don't have repression against minorities, against women, against LGBTQ people, racial repression, etcetera. You are free to live your life as you please. Just don't try to coup the government or assassinate the president, that should be simple to do for everyone except CIA agents, right?

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Vessarionovich t1_ixeoeiz wrote

>Do you have any source on the "billions" of aid to Cuba from decades ago?

According to the US government, aid in 1983 alone totaled $5.3 billion....far, far more than any US aid given to any Latin country then or now...

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp85t00287r000400450001-0

>Aid for basic necesities, while useful and necesary, won't fix any of the problems caused by not being able to freely trade with the world.

What kind of apologia are you advancing here? The aid was massive....far transcending "basic necessities".

> Which is what the USA and Israel prohibit Cuba to do.

Again, a bizarre representation. Israel and the USA are the only countries in the world to boycott the Cuban economy. They don't prohibit Cuba to trade with and receive aid from the rest of the world. Why hasn't that trade and aid done anything to help Cuba's decrepit economic system? Perhaps because it is the same stultifying socialist system that strangled the Soviet Union and compelled China and Vietnam to pursue market reforms.

>How far do you think Israel (to give an example of a similar sized country) would go with an economic blockade of the extension and duration that the cuban blockade has had?

Israel has indeed suffered an economic block-aid from much of the Muslim world for the entirety of its existence. Yet, it's doing so well economically that some Arab countries have abandoned the effort so as to benefit from economic relations with Israel.

>For example, in the US political repression is strictly enforced against communists, and communist parties have historically been persecuted, criminalized and sabotaged by the FBI and the CIA.

I see. Communists in the USA are arrested and imprisoned in the USA just like non-Communist activists are arrested and imprisoned in Cuba? Believe it or not, the Communist Party of the USA exists legally....its representative runs for President every 4 years. Is there any non-Communist equivalent in Cuba? Better do some remedial studying.

>You are free to live your life as you please. Just don't try to coup the government or assassinate the president, that should be simple to do for everyone except CIA agents, right?

Tell that to the hundreds of human-rights activists languishing in Cuban jails for daring to speak out and demonstrate in defense of freedom!

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the_grinning_cat t1_ixh93tw wrote

> Again, a bizarre representation. Israel and the USA are the only countries in the world to boycott the Cuban economy. They don't prohibit Cuba to trade with and receive aid from the rest of the world.

This is just a lie man, and lying is bad. The US by itself is already a good chunk of the world economy, obviously. But besides that, the US prohibits foreign companies that want to trade with Cuba from engaging in bussiness with the US. So if, say, a german company wants to sell their products in Cuba, that means they won't be able to do it in the US. And there are multiple similar mechanisms, regulations and sanctions that make it very difficult to trade with the US and with Cuba at the same time, or to do bussiness with both countries or with US allies, and so on. And can you guess which market is any company going to choose? Tiny communist island, or the biggest economy in the world?

The claim that Cuba can "freely" trade with other countries is propaganda, plain and simple. This is the bullshit that the US media promotes.

> "Of course the U.S. cannot prohibit firms from other countries from trading with Cuba," Richard Feinberg, a professor of international political economy at the University of California-San Diego, said in an email. "However, the U.S. has instituted various economic sanctions that make that trade and investment riskier and more costly, creating serious disincentives." USA Today

The cynicism you have to have to say that trade from other countries is "seriously discouraged" by the largest economy in the world, while at the same time claiming that Cuba is able to freely trade with other countries, is repugnant.

>Israel has indeed suffered an economic block-aid from much of the Muslim world for the entirety of its existence. Yet, it's doing so well economically that some Arab countries have abandoned the effort so as to benefit from economic relations with Israel.

Lobby groups were able to sanction laws against boycotting Israel. So not only they are not sanctioned by the largest economy in the world, they have laws against boycotting them. Imagine that! I can't think of any other country in the world that has laws against boycotting that country.

> I see. Communists in the USA are arrested and imprisoned in the USA just like non-Communist activists are arrested and imprisoned in Cuba? Believe it or not, the Communist Party of the USA exists legally....its representative runs for President every 4 years. Is there any non-Communist equivalent in Cuba? Better do some remedial studying.

Communist parties in the US and in most of western europe were dismantled during the cold war, you should know. Unrelentless persecution, infiltration, sabotage, false flags, criminalization and assassination of political activists caused a chilling effect and destroyed this organization. I don't know if you are being disingenous or you actually don't know the level of persecution and sabotage that these organizations had in the past. The black panthers were at a time, the largest communist and revolutionary party in the US. And they were chased to literally death. You should know that. Anti-war activists were thrown in jail, repressed with bullet and batons, killed in clashes with the police, suffered from false accusations, and so on.

The CPUSA is able to legally exist because they are so weak and tiny. How can you not see that? If any communist party gained any kind of traction in the US, it would be sabotaged, criminalized and persecuted. This is not an opinion, it is an assertion based on verifiable past experiences.

> Internal repression did and does exist in the United States, but it was not mostly subtle, it was mostly overt. The presence of police—with guns, clubs, dogs, tear gas, and firehoses—is not subtle. Burning crosses are downright ostentatious. Deployment of the National Guard to put down urban uprisings was common practice—there were over 1,000 urban uprisings between 1960 and the mid-‘70s, which means hundreds of instances of tanks, armored personnel carriers, and columns of soldiers invading American cities. According to the most conservative estimates, between 1965 and ’67, around 130 black men were killed and 28,000 arrested in various instances of urban unrest (when you consider that 43 people were killed in Detroit in July 1967 alone, those numbers seems way too low).31 The McCarran Internal Security Act of 1950 established a concentration camp system (6 were completed) where accused subversives would be interned in the case of national emergency; Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, and Martin Luther King all warned that this law could be used against their movements.32 In 1950, the FBI actually drew up a list of 12,000 accused subversives who were to be rounded up and held in Guantánamo Bay-style indefinite detention–the only reason they weren’t is that Truman declined Hoover’s demands to incarcerate them. After the riots that followed MLK’s assassination, the Army drew up apocalyptic plans under the rubric of Operation Garden Plot to deploy brigades to 25 cities to wage an open counterinsurgency war. If resistance to the status quo had intensified in the 1970s, rather than waned, the Pentagon was ready to turn American cities into “scenes of destruction approaching those of Stalingrad during World War II,” in the words of one Army general.

Noam Chomsky and the compatible left

> Tell that to the hundreds of human-rights activists languishing in Cuban jails for daring to speak out and demonstrate in defense of freedom!

Lol, "in defense of freedom". Freedom from whom, freedom to do what? Freedom to marry whoever you want, to eat every day, to have a house, to have higher education, to rest, to leisure? Or freedom to restore capitalism, to prostitute children and reintroduce gambling? Freedom to make Cuba a US colony again, like during the Batista years? Freedom to do what?

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Vessarionovich t1_iyaw6o9 wrote

Your desperate prevarications don't change reality.

  1. Cuba trades with many countries in the world that are major trading partners with the USA. Canada is Cuba's largest source of exports.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Cuba/Trade

  1. Has it ever occurred to you that the CPUSA is weak and tiny because they have no popular support? Regardless, they operate legally and are NOT repressed, unlike ALL non-communist Cuban parties.

  2. Freedom from whom? freedom to do what?"

Freedom from an oppressive government that brooks no opposition.

"Freedom to do what?

I realize that given your ideological proclivities, you're not very creative....but how about the freedom to vote in fair elections!...the freedom to start political parties, engaging in freedom of the press, and most importantly, having the freedom to criticize the government without being arrested (which is currently NOT the case; hundreds of human rights activists are languishing in Cuban jails, and you, purveyor of all that is good and righteous, could not care less).

You see.... your arguments can't stand the light of day....because they are constructed on intellectual and moral bankruptcies. Isn't it time to grow up and stop believing in chimera's like communism? It's been an economic and political nightmare everywhere it's ever been tried.

I've said my piece. Experience has taught me that the mind of a radical leftist is so ideologically straight-jacketed that a constructive dialogue is impossible. Therefore, I will neither respond to your reply...nor bother reading it.

Have a great night friend.

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the_grinning_cat t1_iychmng wrote

Cuba barely trades to survive, not to thrive or grow. At one point is beneficalto the US that Cuba is able to get the bare minimum to subsist. Otherwise the people would just fucking die and the US would be too explicit in their genocidical intentions against cubans. You cant be too explicit when commiting a genocide, right? And the cuban embargo is that, a genocide.

And regarding the CPUSA, in every complex phenomenon there are multiple causes. Communism parties represent the interests of the proletariat, and were historically responsible for the few concessions thst the capitalist class gave to workers (8 hour work day, vacations, child labor, etc.). So naturally they should have the support of all proletariats. But there are two facts:

  1. Communists were suppressed (either by assasination, imprisonment, blackmail, deportation, violence, etc.) from public life. Currently the violence is subtler, but when it truly mattered (50s, 60s and 70s) they were savagely repressed. If you care about history you should know that.

  2. American workers have suffered from decades of Cold War "red-scare". Massive anti communist propaganda that pits the workers against their interests.

And regarding the freedom, you can do those things in Cuba! You can engage in constructive discussion, just don't try to overthrow the government. The government is not totalitarian. It listens to its own people.

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