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Intruding1 t1_ixi04rj wrote

I find it fascinating that the more we actually take ancient writings, maps, drawings, etc. seriously, the more they tend to be remarkably accurate. I think the future of history/archaeology is going to be giving serious inquiry to discoveries that were traditionally written off.

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starfyredragon t1_ixikh2z wrote

We've gotten used to old ancient writings from Abrahamic religions being so off kilter, we forgot that the same pattern didn't apply to the rest.

The Native Americans on the West coast accurately tracked multiple natural disasters that were evidenced later.

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Artanthos t1_ixinsy4 wrote

Even the Abrahamic histories are not as far off as a lot of people would wish.

Aside from religion, there is a lot of oral history there, and quite a bit of it has been verified.

To go even further. A lot of Abrahmic mythology is nothing more than Sumerian mythology that has been slightly altered.

For example, Abrahamic stories of the Great Flood come directly from the Sumerian, including their own version of the ark.

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starfyredragon t1_ixio995 wrote

Abrahamic history doesn't start to match real history until you get to the kingdom of Isreael period. That said it does start to match some things starting that point, so credence can be given to your point.

That said, the Sumerian version of the ark story also didn't happen. It's a story that got passed, but doesn't fit the archeology.

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Odie4Prez t1_ixir95l wrote

This is mostly true, but there is at least once early reference to a place that did exist that no longer does, specifying the location of the garden of Eden. It's described as lying near the convergence of two rivers into the Tigris and Euphrates from the NE and SW that no longer exist, as the whole area has since been swallowed by the Persian Gulf. This area of Mesopotamia was likely some of the most fertile, productive land of the area with who knows how many great ancient Sumerian cities now mostly inaccessible to archaeology (for now, at least). So even in the fairly obviously non-historical parts of Abrahamic myth, there's pieces of genuine history to be found.

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TheMadTemplar t1_ixk62oq wrote

If you're referring to the convergence of the Tigris and Eurphrates themselves, they convergence at Al-Qurnah in Iraq, which is north of Kuwait. Of course, that's the modern convergence. Rivers change course and path over long periods of time.

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GoldenRamoth t1_ixj5j2v wrote

Do you have any links to info on that theory? That's cool and I've never heard it before.

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mouse_8b t1_ixjh59k wrote

I don't know of any sources for this specifically, but it certainly seems plausible, especially with the recent discoveries about other ancient stories being true.

Netflix just released Ancient Apocalypse, which talks about things like this as a result of exiting the last ice age. It's interesting, but definitely take it all with a grain of salt. It's got a little bit of Ancient Aliens flavor in it.

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nybbleth t1_ixqg712 wrote

> It's got a little bit of Ancient Aliens flavor in it.

Rather more than a "little".

Ancient Apocalypse is complete bunk and under absolutely no circumstance should anyone take it even the slightest bit seriously. Like, first of all, if the opening of it starts you off with clips from Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson, you instantly know what kind of crowd this is designed to appeal to.

The guy behind it, Graham Hancock, is a total laughing stock promoting pseudoscientific conspiracy theories. There's absolutely nothing in his work that is at all plausible.

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mouse_8b t1_ixrvoye wrote

So nothing important happened to humanity at the end of the ice age and the pyramids he shows are all fake. Got it.

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nybbleth t1_ixrypmg wrote

Dude. Do some basic reading on the dude. He's a fucking charlatan, plain and simple. None of the archeological sites he points to are anywere close to as old as he claims they are and there's absolutely nothing linking them. He continuously makes bold claims that simply aren't true, and disproven by real archeology. Anyone who disagrees with him is quickly dismissed or made out to be part of some kind of conspiracy.

He's peddling pseudoscientific bullshit, plain and simple, and you're falling for it.

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peteroh9 t1_ixje8wm wrote

It's not a theory; it's just sea level rise.

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starfyredragon t1_ixjvqi3 wrote

That's mythology, not history.

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Odie4Prez t1_ixk5nuu wrote

Mythology is generally defined as stories central to a culture or religion that don't always fit neatly into the historical record. Mythology very often holds clues to actual history (and sometimes it's just straightforwardly the most accurate oral history that could plausibly be retained through the generations), which is my point here: the mythology holds a clue to the existence of a place other disciplines of science have recently rediscovered.

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Skynetiskumming t1_ixji6sx wrote

Cultures from all around the globe have catastrophic flood stories. Cultures which we presume never had any contact all say long ago there was a gigantic flood. We have scientific evidence to support that story. It shouldn't surprise anyone once it's based on hard evidence.

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davidbklyn t1_ixkp0ri wrote

This got me thinking. There are American folktales about great floods from not very long ago. I wonder how much we can think the catastrophic flood narratives belie a situation in which any major flood was catastrophic just because it happened and was devastating. Maybe we’re now experiencing the same type/level of floods but they aren’t as catastrophic because we have developed the ability to be more predictive and more protective.

I don’t wish to diminish the efficacy of ancient cultures or be chauvinistic about “today’s technology”, but I’m reminded of one explanation of the rise in autism rates being linked better and more diagnostic insights.

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1nfernals t1_ixkx6a7 wrote

I've noticed that a lot of cultures have myths around the sun and moon. Specific examples including Inuit and Egyptian folklore refers to one chasing the other. I've wondered if references to celestial bodies might actually have been describing supernova.

Personally while I doubt I would have understood what the sun or moon actually were, given I was alive during an earlier period, I can't imagine the sun or the moon would inspire much intrigue or mysticism. They've been around for an incredibly long time and early humans would have been quite used to being unable to accurately or definitively explain their environment, but imagine if one day a star brighter than the moon appeared in the sky, clearly visible during the day and slowly faded over several months.

I could imagine that experience being passed down through oral tradition, with successive generations not experiencing similar events for hundreds or thousands of years due to the rarity of said events. Successive generations may have interpreted these stories as describing the sun and moon as a result, possibly even modifying them intentionally to better narrate their environment.

Related to your point about the devastation a relatively mild flood of today's standards could have had on our ancestors and how different cultures could generate similar flood mythos as a result, I think the same could have occurred in religions or folklore from attempts to describe a variety of different events.

It would make sense that if two distinct groups experienced a volcanic eruption, earthquake or tsunami even if they were separated by a large amount of time or space, could describe these events in similar ways. Also reminiscent of folklore similarities between supernatural entities, I believe many cultures describe a demon/creature/entity that would sneak into your home as you slept to drain your strength/power/life often alongside a feeling of being crushed or held down. Personally I've always thought this could be a way of describing sleep paralysis.

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yacjuman t1_ixn40jz wrote

The sun and moon would easily have been 2 of the most interesting and mystical things for hundreds of thousands of years to past human cultures.

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nybbleth t1_ixlx9bb wrote

Various cultures (by no means 'all') having flood myths is hardly evidence of a singular worldwide flood as though. We most certainly don't have scientific evidence for such an event, and plenty to show that it couldn't have happened.

As for the 'evidence' for a more local exceptionally catastrophic flood that ultimately formed the basis for the story in the bible? You're talking about the Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis, which is controversial at best, and there's a number of points of evidence that strongly argue against it.

Ultimately, to explain the various flood myths around the world, there's no real reason to assume an actual great flood of anywhere near the proportions described in such stories. Even regular floods can be relatively destructive, and they happen quite regularly. It really doesn't take much imagination for a culture to come up with a story about a particularly bad one at some undefined point in the past. Any culture that lives near flood-prone areas is almost certainly going to develop such stories over times, and most cultures tend to settle in such areas because of the obvious benefits they bring (floods aside). There is nothing remarkable about this.

Edit: god, basic logic and actual science triggers some people I guess.

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4x4is16Legs t1_ixm4sjh wrote

There are people living now that if their local area flooded or was hit by a tsunami would think it was worldwide because they never travel far from their birthplace. The only thing that makes a difference now is TV and the internet. And I’m not just saying poor rural people- my in-laws have dozens of family members who have never been outside their hometown.

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Artanthos t1_ixozyoa wrote

>Various cultures (by no means 'all') having flood myths is hardly evidence of a singular worldwide flood as though

We know there was massive global flooding at the end of the Ice Age.

We also know various oral histories regarding flooding have all pointed to geographic and archaeological evidence that verified those stories were all related to end of Ice Age flooding.

Inuit oral history recorded villages (among a people that did not have permanent villages). Those villages have been found underwater.

Australian aboriginals passing down the names, locations of descriptions of islands that don't exist. But we found them underwater by following those stories, and they would have been above water at the end of the Ice Age.

Why would we doubt that the Sumerians, who were 6,000 years closer in time to the Ice Age, would not have remembered the post Ice Age flooding in their oral histories?

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nybbleth t1_ixqffu1 wrote

> We know there was massive global flooding at the end of the Ice Age.

There was no singular "global" flood at the end of the ice age. There were floods, yes. But these were regional and weren't singlularly cataclysmic events but rather a series of floods that happened over centuries and thousands of years. This doesn't correspond to abrahamic mythology at all. They're much more comparable to the increase in flooding and extreme weather events we're seeing today as a result of climate change. We are experiencing more hurricanes for example which over time adds up to a lot of damage. Now one could imagine hypothetically that such a statistical increase might lead to a culture falling apart as they can not cope with the increase. Which would likely lead to stories being told about it yes. But if ten thousand years from now, that story would be that a single great storm wiped out that civilization (or to make it more akin to the abrahamic tales, wiped out 99.9999% of humanity) in an instant, that would be wildly incorrect.

> Inuit oral history recorded villages (among a people that did not have permanent villages). Those villages have been found underwater.

Color me skeptical at best.

> Australian aboriginals passing down the names, locations of descriptions of islands that don't exist. But we found them underwater by following those stories, and they would have been above water at the end of the Ice Age.

Yes. Again. Color me skeptical at best. I am aware of these claims by some scholars; but this is by no means accepted consensus science. The notion that a society that has no writing or mapmaking could maintain an accurate oral tradition that somehow records exact locations and details of geographical features that were lost 15-10000 years ago is frankly so absurd that I'm inclined to dismiss such claims out of hand. At the very least it's going to require a hell of a lot more evidence than one or two papers when the far more likely explanation is that these kinds of claims are a case of researcher bias where they're essentially pigeonholing the facts into unclear stories, or these islands were in fact dry land much more recently.

> Why would we doubt that the Sumerians, who were 6,000 years closer in time to the Ice Age, would not have remembered the post Ice Age flooding in their oral histories?

Because the ability of humans to accurately re-tell a story is notoriously unreliable even where it concerns very recent events. The idea that we could accurately pass information down this way over a period of many thousands of years is simply not very plausible.

And as I pointed out earlier, it really doesn't take much for a culture to come up with flood stories without having to have some sort of cultural memory of a particularly bad one ten thousand years ago. Floods are common. Islands and other stretches of land disasappearing due to flood erosion are common.

Arguing that they're memories of late ice-age floods is almost like a reverse prophecy fallacy: If I predict that at some undefined point in the future, there will be war, does that mean I'm a prophet, or did I simply make the obvious observation that an event that has happened countless times before is probably going to happen again? Similarly, in reverse, if a culture has some sort of grand destructive flood story in its tradition, do you really think it's more likely that they've accurately kept the memory alive of a flood 10000 years ago as opposed to just mixed and matched observations of more recent floods together, finding seashells on mountains (which isn't caused by floods) and tried to fill in some blanks here and there? People make shit up all the time.

Also because the Sumerian creation myth incorporating the flood is generally believed to have been inspired by a local river flood at Shuruppak (which is where the story begins) around 2900BCE, causing the settlement to be abandoned for a time. The Sumerian flood myth is only written down after that, despite us having older sumerican creation myths that do not mention the flood story.

Plus, Mesopotamia is literally located on a vast riverplain. Floods would've happened there regularly. It isn't hard to imagine they might seem to have inundated most of the world to their limited geographical knowledge.

Again, it's a matter of plausibility.

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Artanthos t1_ixry9gn wrote

You can be as skeptical as you want, it doesn’t change well documented facts.

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nybbleth t1_ixs8uyd wrote

Right, so now we're elevating unverified claims and conjecture made on the basis of interpreting vague stories by a handful of people to not just facts, but "well documented" facts.

Meanwhile, you simply ignore those empirical facts that show that even if you could somehow prove that the stories you're calling upon draw upon some sort of cultural memory dating back to the ice age, the actual flooding that happened at that period was gradual and took place over centuries or even thousands of years, thereby invalidating the conclusions you're drawing since flood mythology talks about a single cataclysmic flood, and not a slow process of much smaller floods.

Not to mention all the other arguments I've brought forth. You brought up the Sumerian Flood Creation Myth. Are you going to address the fact that said myth can only be traced back to 1600BC and that it doesn't seem to appear in other of their creation myths that we can date to much earlier? How does that documented fact not factor into your reasoning?

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Artanthos t1_ixsxrdn wrote

The whole point, there has been verification.

The no longer existing islands have been found. The Inuit villages have been found.

And there was absolutely no way either people could have guessed. They remembered mostly accurate information through thousands of years of oral history.

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nybbleth t1_ixv0nsh wrote

> The whole point, there has been verification.

So you say. I have yet to see you post a scientific paper on this matter, much less independent verification of the claims in it.

> And there was absolutely no way either people could have guessed

Says you. Again, I am not seeing any 'verification' that this claim is at all true.

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Artanthos t1_ixv175l wrote

Go look it up yourself, you certainly won't believe anything I link.

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nybbleth t1_ixvcbry wrote

I've tried. I've found exactly zero sources claiming inuit oral traditions have accurately pointed out villages lost by floods 10000 years ago.

Which face it, would be quite impressive since they weren't even around back then. The Inuit only formed a thousand years ago, which is when they came to occupy the area they now live in. Their ancestors lived in Alaska and Russia before that, so there's literally no way for them to have an oral tradition about villages lost 10,000 years ago in the area they now inhabit. Neither could they have adapted stories from the people that lived there before (the Dorset culture), since there appears to have been no contact between these groups. Nor would that matter if they had, because none of the paleo-eskimo seemed to have existed that far back. Humans only started living in the areas the Inuit now live 5000 years ago at the earliest. So obviously they can't have oral traditions about the area that date back twice as far.

This is clearly something you either made up entirely, something someone else made up, or a case of you misremembering something you read.

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DreddPirateBob808 t1_iyc78cf wrote

I live at the bottom of a mountain that would have been a glacier at the end of the ice age. There was a lot of water up there and when it melted it would have filled the valley. There's a bronze age circle (possible older) there and evidence of long term occupation. If the people had moved north just in time for the melt to really get going they'd have see major flooding and destruction

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SpaceJackRabbit t1_ixk5usb wrote

All ancient lore pretty much has the story of a great flood, which probably go back to the end of the last ice ago about 11,000 years ago.

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Rusty_Shakalford t1_ixkefof wrote

I mean, there’s a bit of confirmation bias at play here. You only read about cases like this one where it turns out to be accurate, nobody writes articles about all the inaccurate maps or nonexistent geography.

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NIRPL t1_ixjcyf1 wrote

Which completely blows my mind because I, a normal person, would have thought to do that first.

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