TakeBeerBenchinHilux t1_iy1mrfv wrote
Reply to comment by Seienchin88 in On April 2, 1941, a Japanese foreign minister asked Pope Pius XII to speak to U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt, so as to avert "a war of mutual destruction” by marketrent
Plenty of oil in Manchukuo and Indonesia. But somehow the Kaigun decided it was a good idea to open another front on Hawaii where there's no oil.
Coloradostoneman t1_iy1rvr6 wrote
The attack on Hawaii makes perfect sense if you think a war with the US in the Pacific is inevitable. They did because of 3 factors: US declared that European Colonies in the area were off limits and those were the places that had oil. The US was essentially the sole supplier of oil to Japan before the war and had just declared an embargo. The US territory of the Philippines was between Japan and all of the critical resources in south east Asia and Australia.
Basically, the US put Japan in a corner with a short time line by cutting off the oil supply. Japan had to find more oil and to do so they had to invade the colonies which the US had said would mean war and shipping that oil would be impossibly vulnerable without attacking the Philippines which would mean war with the US.
If you are going to fight a war with the US you have to hit Hawaii first and with a huge and successfull strike. Projecting power across the Pacific without Hawaii is essentially impossible.
Doberman7290 t1_iy226m1 wrote
But a war was avoidable - the Reich was furious. They knew it was bad news
Coloradostoneman t1_iy2doj9 wrote
How could Japan avoid a war with the US. Their supply of oil was cut off and they had no way to get more without a war with the US. They couldn't just stop the war in China. They were committed and the political and cultural situation made stopping impossible. The Oil embargo was a masterpiece. There were no bad outcomes from Roosevelt's perspective. It allows the US to get into the war with a motivated population. In November 1941 the US population did not want to be a part of the war. Without the US, Britian falls. Without Britian, the are no distractions for a Germany invading russia (North Africa) without those distractions and US lend lease to the USSR and Germany probably wins there.
Every leader knew the US people had to be convinced to join. That meant a brutal but impotent attack on US soil. Thus pearl harbor with all the carriers elsewhere.
Doberman7290 t1_iy2j2d6 wrote
Man you got it all wrong. I’ll come back tomorrow
Coloradostoneman t1_iy5ou8u wrote
I notice you have down voted but not replied. Which of my statements were wrong and why?
Coloradostoneman t1_iy2o640 wrote
Which bits are wrong? Please be explicit and provide your explanations
TakeBeerBenchinHilux t1_iy5304i wrote
Perfect sense didn't end well over the next 4 years...
Coloradostoneman t1_iy5ojmt wrote
no, It did not end well and they pretty much knew they were screwed when the carriers were not there. It was a long shot, but they did not feel that they had a choice.
TakeBeerBenchinHilux t1_iy6u5lm wrote
Yes, no choice. No choice but to rape through China, Southeast Asia, blitz Pearl Harbor and occupy the Aluetians. Manchuria, Taiwan and Korea wasn't enough resources. Hail Mary through the Philippines, Vietnam, Burma, Indonesia, Malysia, northern Australia, Micronesia, Polynesia and even Papua New Guinea for some reason, right?
Coloradostoneman t1_iy76y79 wrote
Notice I said "they did not FEEL that they had a choice" not that they didn't.
All I said they had no real choice on was attacking pearl harbor. And given that the other option was packing it all in because they had no oil, which was culturally and politically untenable, no, they did not really have a choice in their mind.
Were there technically other options? Yes, there usually are. Was there any chance they would be taken? No. In the Japan of the time ending the war was literally death for the commanders.
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