Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

BodolftheGnome t1_iyjlbee wrote

I mean, merchants and travelers tend to end up moving way farther than we think

433

pass_nthru t1_iyjx8kc wrote

they found tin from uzbekistan mined during the bronze age in a ship wreck off the coast of turkey

202

Bentresh t1_iyk0cnt wrote

I’ll add that materials like tin and lapis lazuli were not the products of direct trade between the eastern Mediterranean and central Asia; they were passed along by a series of middlemen. For example, the Mycenaeans obtained amber from people in central Europe, who acquired it from the Baltic, ostrich feathers and eggshells from the Egyptians, who got them from Nubia, and so on. Tin would’ve been imported to Mesopotamia from states further east like Elam (in what is now Iran), which acquired it from the city-states of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (awkwardly named, I know) in what is now Turkmenistan and parts of Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan.

This is very different from the direct trade between regions via donkey caravans or ships — the Old Assyrian trade between Anatolia and the Assyrian city of Aššur, the 3rd/2nd millennium BCE trade between southern Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley Civilization, the trade expeditions between Egypt and the Horn of Africa, etc.

157

Breakfest-burrito t1_iyk5805 wrote

For a second I had to quickly scroll up halfway through your comment to see if we were going to end up with mankind getting thrown off the cage in the "hell in the cell" match

56

ZeeperCreeperPow t1_iykwtmx wrote

Lol that guy gets me all the time. A true master of his craft

14

Hippiebigbuckle t1_iykxi75 wrote

Been a while since I’ve seen him. What was his username?

8

delnoob t1_iyl7izb wrote

I'm so scared of them, but I can never remember their exact username. I just know it when I see it

7

Jackalodeath t1_iym7v8a wrote

If I remember correctly, they went by shittymorph.

They took a small break during the pandemic; something about trolling enough people for a while or something. They still creep the subreddits as far as I know so keep your wits about you.

1

Hippiebigbuckle t1_iyn9f7r wrote

Yeah, that sounds right. Haven’t seen him in so long it slipped my mind. I’ve been walking around completely unwary. I feel so vulnerable.

2

spastical-mackerel t1_iyo4cul wrote

At some point there was the first guy to figure out trade like this. Well by definition the first two guys. What a revelation that must have been

1

[deleted] t1_iyk93t9 wrote

[deleted]

19

Bentresh t1_iyks1q3 wrote

Long distance trade declined toward the end of the Late Bronze Age — and in the Early/Middle Iron Age was increasingly carried out by private merchants rather than state-sponsored expeditions — but continued nonetheless. Imported materials like lapis and tin were still available and used in the Early Iron Age.

To quote Sarah Murray’s The Collapse of the Mycenaean Economy (2017),

>Snodgrass originally argued that the use of bronze in Greece decreased after the LBA because the supply of tin, which must have been brought to Greece from far away to the East or North, was cut off at the end of the Bronze Age, forcing Greeks to find a new metal from which to make their tools and weapons. According to this bronze shortage theory, trade routes bringing copper and tin to Greece broke down just after some areas of Greece had learned the art of ironworking from Cyprus. When they could no longer obtain copper and tin, Greeks turned their metallurgical attention to forging iron (in places like Euboea where they had learned how to do it) or to the recycling of old Mycenaean bronzes (in places like West Greece where they had not). Bronze became more abundant again when trade with the east was reestablished around 900.

>This theory has been controversial. Morris questioned the bronze shortage hypothesis on the grounds that it draws too simple a connection between deliberately deposited metal artifacts and originally circulating quantities of metal. He argued that the prominence of iron in burial assemblages during the EIA reflects new social strategies that were put into place by an emergent elite that used a different metal to set itself apart within society. In this view, the use of iron for tools and jewelry was not the outcome of need generated by the lack of a preferable metal, bronze. Rather, changes in the socially determined meaning of metals led to different types of deliberate deposition, which is what we see in the archaeological record. We might also imagine that as iron became more common in the PG period, demand for bronze would have declined, because metal made from a local ore had replaced many uses of the old exogenous resource. In any case, the notion that tin was in short supply in the EIA has found little support from analyses of bronze objects, which have normal to high tin contents. Snodgrass has now stepped back from his original position, and most scholars have followed suit, questioning just how much access to tin waned…

15

ThrowRA2020NYEhell t1_iylju4j wrote

There was a pollen grain analysis study published a few years back that indicated a broad regional climatic shift, drought, and subsequent widespread famine resulted in mass migration. There are also cuneiform tablet correspondences between Near Eastern empires and Egypt in that time period attesting grain shortages and general civil unrest. So it's less likely that it was a disruption in tin trade directly that ended the LBA and more a breakdown and collapse of trade networks when hungry, angry people abandoned cities and went looking for "greener pastures".

This is a very general summary and it's actual way more complex than just sea people are climate refuges but I'd happy to talk more in-depth.

6

AugustSprite t1_iyl2qj4 wrote

I have similar suspicions. I've thought about how a small number of elites with bronze weapons and armour could control the masses. I can also imagine them suppressing iron technology. However, once one empire lost control, iron weapons and tools dispersed quickly, insurrections happened, and the whole house of bronze collapsed.

4

DaddyCatALSO t1_iyksqp3 wrote

I've read (in the Penguin atlas of ancient history, the Sumerians lost access to tin at one point and fell temporarily back into the Chalcolithic.)

3

Chance-Ad-9103 t1_iykvq20 wrote

It was the tidal wave that wiped out Crete. The Minoans were the copper plug from their incredibly pure mines in Michigan. No copper no need for tin.

−5

Fatshortstack t1_iykh8c2 wrote

I thought that Uzbekistan and Afghanistan is where the tin was coming from?

16

pass_nthru t1_iykhcif wrote

yes, and by way of trade networks made it all the way to the mediterranean to make bronze

14

gregorydgraham t1_iykzvkf wrote

That’ll be from Shortugai, tin was/is very rare and the Mediterranean had very few sources of it: small amounts from Sardinia, (modern) Galicia, and Cornwall

11

Chopper_x t1_iyjxfyj wrote

During a 1954 excavation of an 8th-century Viking settlement in Sweden archaeologists found a Buddha statuette from India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helg%C3%B6

55

ShashwatSinha t1_iyls5mw wrote

Eight century is quite early

3

Chopper_x t1_iymtymb wrote

The statue is dated even earlier

>small Buddha statuette from North India and a christening scoop from Egypt, both dating from the 6th century.

2

Better-Ambassador738 t1_iyjo8ik wrote

Yeah, that jumped out at me too. It’s not like these places are super far apart. I’m not sure how long a walk that is, but I can’t imagine it would be more than a season, if that.

27

Wurm42 t1_iyk0s0q wrote

The goods travel farther than any one trader. Valuable items like gold might change hands many times before they reach their final buyer.

25

runespider t1_iyk3sbj wrote

We know that that kings would send gifts of gold to each other which would be melted down and repurposed. We have a letter to Ahkenaten's mom complaining about some fake gold statues sent by Ahkenaten

12

roguetrick t1_iyjsbi9 wrote

Ones an island, so the walk might be perilous. Pretty big trek from Anatolia to Iraq as well.

19

Ass_feldspar t1_iykeinz wrote

I think they preferred traveling by boat.

6

I-Make-Maps91 t1_iynj1j9 wrote

Yes. Unless you're moving small and very high value objects, a boat will always be the better way to move bulk goods. One of the reasons Rome was so successful was the ability to use the Mediterranean to transport goods the way we use trains today.

I don't know how much tin is needed to make bronze, but I would hazard a guess that boats along the Indian ocean played a big role.

2

BalderSion t1_iykadsb wrote

As I understand it, a key way to differentiate a neanderthal camp from a homo sapien camp is the the neanderthals only have locally sourced materials and homo sapiens have goods from all over Eurasia.

10

AgrajagTheProlonged t1_iykyqhg wrote

And even if the traders themselves didn’t travel the whole distance, there’s nothing stopping the traders from selling the goods to another traders who travel and sell the goods to another trader, etcetera ad infinitum

2

doctorkanefsky t1_iymbzvz wrote

Normally the individual merchants don’t range that far, but goods will change hands many times. If thirty people each move goods 10 miles they can get very far away.

1

Nixeris t1_iymxhnu wrote

They're not even that far away. When they marched on Greece the Achaemenids (Persians) marched from Babylon just north of Ur to Greece.

1

[deleted] t1_iylsxzp wrote

[deleted]

−5

UglyTitties t1_iym3pmr wrote

Please provide a source for such an utterly preposterous claim.

5

[deleted] t1_iymzaso wrote

[deleted]

1

UglyTitties t1_iyn2oxa wrote

Ok, so they found traces on the mummies, not in the tombs, and they have only been found on mummies in that museum. I'd say it's much more likely that someone probably thought it would be fun to do lines on the mummies at some kind of after work party.

1

[deleted] t1_iyn5s9w wrote

[deleted]

2

UglyTitties t1_iyn8fdc wrote

I'm theorising from what is laid out in your own source, that it might be caused by contamination. I find contamination much more likely than the Egyptians having trade routes with pre colombian people.

1