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IslandChillin OP t1_izt3u5e wrote

"The team investigating the Gerza archaeological site in Fayoum also uncovered a funerary building, records written on papyrus, pottery, and coffins dating from the Ptolemaic period, which spans from 305 B.C. to 30 B.C., through the Roman era, which lasted from 30 B.C. to 390 A.D. 

The government has said these finds give fascinating insights into the social, economic, and religious conditions of the people living in Philadelphia (which meant, in ancient Greek, "City of Brotherly Love") nearly 2000 years ago. 

The collection of paintings, known as the Fayoum portraits, portrays some of the wealthiest people that existed in these ancient communities. The Philadelphia settlement was home to Greeks and Egyptians over the 600-year period. 

Basem Gehad, the head of the Ancient Philadelphia Excavation project, which led the latest dig, wrote in an email to Artnet News that "no one really knows the context of these portraits," but added, "Now, we can know certainly where they came from, and find more."

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TeacherAdorable4864 t1_izts59l wrote

Disclaimer that this is set during the Ptolemaic Dynasty. So these are most likely representations of Mediterranean colonizers -not the Ancient Native Egyptians.

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vteckickedin t1_iztzksa wrote

Sure would have been nice to see some of these other than single image from the article.

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Kap-J t1_izu1lwc wrote

I was so confused, I thought they found these images in America. I was like, this is massive news, how did they get there!

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Bentresh t1_izu4xsm wrote

Replying to TeacherAdorable4864 (#908,372)

Not necessarily. Many Egyptians, especially members of the elite, chose to represent themselves in a Greek or hybrid Greco-Egyptian style. As Lorelei Corcoran noted in Portrait Mummies from Roman Egypt,

>It is futile to classify the subjects of the portraits in ethnic groups, as "Romans," "Greeks," or "Egyptians." For their part, "Romans" seem only to have made up one percent of the population of Roman Egypt (Steenken 1987, p. 14), certainly not enough to justify the numbers and geographic diversity of portrait burials. The ethnic or racial distinctions between "Greeks" and "Hellenized Egyptians" appear, moreover, by this period to have blurred (Shore 1972, p. 17). The patrons of the portrait mummies can be characterized as members of the wealthy sector of society of Roman Egypt that was at the time ethnically diverse, but culturally homogeneous, maintaining a strong indigenous tradition that critically "absorbed, modified and rejected foreign influences" (Ritner 1986, p. 243). The reassignment of the portrait mummies to the Egyptian sphere, however, raises an important question, "Where and how were those 'Greek and Roman' settlers in Roman Egypt buried?" Some must have become assimilated to this sector of society. The persistence of native burial customs might have been partially due to the intermarriage of foreign men with native Egyptian women who transmitted the traditions to their children (Pomeroy 1984, pp. 122-23). Other foreigners were either shipped home or buried (or cremated) in Egypt according to their own native fu- nerary traditions.

People of Greek descent made up a relatively small percentage of the population even in the Greco-Roman period.

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TeacherAdorable4864 t1_izu5c6m wrote

Replying to Bentresh (#908,750)

I qualified it with “most likely” but regardless my point remains - these images shouldn’t be seen as representations of indigenous Egyptian people or indigenous Egyptian culture. This is the result of colonial invasion by the Ptolemaic Dynasty/Alexander. It’s important to name that because there’s a long history of trying to make Egypt an extension of the Mediterranean without attaching the history behind it.

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MeatballDom t1_izu636x wrote

Replying to sygnathid (#908,665)

The Ptolemaic Period is still very much considered ancient. Yes, Egyptian history goes back much further, but modern history goes ahead much longer. It was recognised during the time that the history was already so old though. There's the famous tidbit about Cleopatra (VII) living closer to the age of computers than the building of the Great Pyramid, which is true, but she still died (and effectively ended the Ptolemaic dynasty) ~2,050 years ago which was a time very much considered ancient.

Also considering the importance of the Ptolemies in Greek and Roman history, they are brought within those timeframes as well. The Ptolemies pre-date the Roman Empire and their downfall is part of the empire's rise.

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TeacherAdorable4864 t1_izu7bly wrote

Replying to MeatballDom (#908,807)

It means Ancient Egypt was colonized by Mediterranean cultures but was most influenced in its earliest days and founded on African + Near East cultures. Cleopatra and her family (as depicted similarly to these images) are not Ancient Egyptians. They are Ancient Greeks in Egypt. Hence the art work.

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TeacherAdorable4864 t1_izu7upa wrote

Replying to MeatballDom (#908,807)

It’s akin to some future civilization uncovering portraits of the US president and describing it as the “Ancient Americans” when there are earlier, truly Indigenous cultures - who are not from Europe.

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MeatballDom t1_izu8jzs wrote

Replying to TeacherAdorable4864 (#908,816)

Egypt is both Mediterranean and African though, and Egypt had long been influenced by other cultures, commuities, and networks and trades long before the Ptolemies. These communities never existed in vacuums. And while yes, Cleopatra's family was Greek/Macedonian in origin, you have to also consider the scope of the time. We're talking three hundred of year between Alexander becoming pharaoh and Cleopatra dying. At this point the family was also Egyptian. Even though Europeans forcefully took control of the Americas we wouldn't say that Tom Englishman who's family came to the Americas 300 years ago is English, not American.

And as Bentresh has already pointed out, you cannot judge by the appearances in the art as to whether those people had Greek origins or not. These things, as is often the case, are more complicated than they appear.

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LupusDeusMagnus t1_izua1la wrote

Oh, it’s some Egyptian Philadelphia, close to Cairo. I was really curious because usually when I hear Philadelphia it means the Philadelphia that fell to the Turks marking the end of the last independent Christian settlement in Asia Minor.

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Welshhoppo t1_izukcb2 wrote

This is about Philadelphia in Egypt. Not the Philadelphia in the USA.

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WiartonWilly t1_izum1r6 wrote

“Which meant, in Ancient Greek, city of brotherly love”

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UncutMeat90 t1_izuvb8i wrote

Not as ancient as you think when you think of mummies

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hyperd0uche t1_izuvfmt wrote

TIL Philadelphia USA was named after an ancient Egyptian city.

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Specific-Pen-1132 t1_izv28dd wrote

TIL Philadelphia was a city in Egypt. Huh, I thought I knew everything.

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TheFamousHesham t1_izv3vqb wrote

Replying to TeacherAdorable4864 (#908,816)

Your understanding of culture is so shallow it’s frustrating. Culture is this constantly evolving thing. Cultures mix and transform and create something new.

Part of the reason why the Ptolemies kept a hold of Egypt for the best part of 300 years is their willingness to adopt the traditions of their new homeland. By the time Cleopatra VII was Queen no one (including Rome and her own subjects) saw her as anything but an Egyptian Queen. As for the local Egyptians, the vast majority seem to have been on board these changes and many adopted Greek customs themselves.

Modern DNA analysis suggests that Fayyoum (where these new mummies were found) is actually very homogeneously Egyptian, indicating that throughout its history it was relatively immune to waves of migration.

Whether you like it or not, “ancient Egypt” has been dramatically influenced by waves of its early invaders. These include the Greeks and Romans, but also the Nubian kingdoms in ~1000 BC. The Hittites and the Hixos. The Persians from the east and the Libyans from the west. That’s just how these things work.

As others have said, Egypt is culturally African, Mediterranean, and Arab.

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tpx187 t1_izvcu3u wrote

Replying to RickAdtley (#909,414)

The biggest surprise was that Philadelphia translated means city of brotherly love. Wasn't sure where that nickname came from... Now it makes sense!

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nuggets792 t1_izvrwhh wrote

Replying to sygnathid (#908,665)

It's all relative. The pyramids at Giza would've been ancient to the Ptolemies, even as early as the time of Alexander the Great.

Egypt is an exceptionally old polity.

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cordial_chordate t1_izvsdy4 wrote

Replying to RickAdtley (#909,414)

I'm from PA and I didn't know there was an original Philadelphia. I just assumed the article meant someone stole these two hundred years ago and they rediscovered them in someone's basement. I just learned a lot today.

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Books_Of_Jeremiah t1_izw0fv3 wrote

Problem with multiple Philadeplhias:

Thought this was a discovery in Amman, Jordan...

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Aragrond t1_izw8kq0 wrote

Replying to tpx187 (#910,439)

It came from the Greek Ptolemaic empire not wanting to dilute their bloodline with Egyptians and marrying heirs to their siblings. Thus “brother loving”

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jedrevolutia t1_izw8rzk wrote

Replying to Attor115 (#911,224)

Well, there was also a Turkish city named Philadelphia in the Bible.

Revelation 3:7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens: 

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hyperd0uche t1_izwcy90 wrote

Replying to BloodletterUK (#911,389)

Thanks, I am aware that many of the “New World” countries adopted place names from other places, people and geographic landmarks. I just wasn’t aware of Philadelphia specifically having an Ancient Greek/Egyptian etymology.

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ThatGIRLkimT t1_izwd6m5 wrote

I'm still curious about what it looks likes.

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Electrical_Court9004 t1_izwfeu0 wrote

Replying to TeacherAdorable4864 (#908,836)

Well if you think that native Americans are an indigenous culture to North America then that would be incorrect because they descended from ancient paleo Siberian’s ( in fact some DNA evidence suggests they may also have been European... https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceshot-native-americans-were-mix-asian-and-european ) so they aren’t indigenous either according to your metric. You see how silly your hypothesis is?

As someone said, your understanding of culture isn’t very well developed or cogent. Just stop with the silly indigenous stuff, cultural osmosis is a thing and there is no ‘definitive’ culture in any given area on earth. It’s all a constant adaptation to and amalgamation of various cultures intermingling over time. A future civilization discovering a US president and describing it as an ancient American would be entirely true relative to the time period from when they discover it.

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Typical_Cyanide t1_izwkpwq wrote

TIL: Philadelphia is a Greek name for an Ancient Egyptian city.

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HappyHunt1778 t1_izwnqsc wrote

Dang all the Eagles fans comin out this year!!

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jedrevolutia t1_izxbjro wrote

Replying to pgm123 (#912,376)

That's also another city called Philadelphia that is now becoming Amman, Jordan.

The one in the Bible is now named Alaşehir and is part of Turkiye. Try googling Alaşehir.

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pgm123 t1_izxbzmx wrote

Replying to jedrevolutia (#913,001)

Apologies. I stand corrected. I shouldn't try to do things off the top of my head before coffee.

The Greeks/Macedonian Greeks really weren't creative with names, were they? All the Philadelphias and Alexandrias make things confusing. It's a shame it couldn't have kept its name into the early modern period. I would be curious what the Turkified version of Philadelphia would be.

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Deathbyhours t1_izy1wt0 wrote

Is the Egyptian pictured wearing a very stylish mustache?

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DistantGalaxy-1991 t1_j0hnx0l wrote

I hate it when 'journalists' are idiots. They're not portraits of mummies. They're portraits of the PEOPLE WHO WERE LATER MUMMIFIED. There is a difference.

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