I have translated some letters between the khans of Mongolian and Manchus recorded in the Manchus literary sources, pretty funny how they were roasting each other.

Submitted by Karvier t3_zkznqy in history

On the 22nd day of October, Kalka Mongol’s prince Joriktu hvng baturu and other princes sent us a letter:” To Manchu’s Sure Kundulun Khan: we attacked you several times before, and that is all Jaisai‘s fault, you knew that. You said China is our mutual enemy, and we should attack it, that was very true! We would like to cooperate with you till we capture their Shanhai pass. The Buddha and Tengri will witness it if we do not honour these words. Secondly, if you want to make peace with the Chinese, you should discuss it with us first because we also want to be included in the treaty. If the Chinese bribe you without bribing us, you should not accept it, same goes for us. If you can honour these words, your name shall be praised. ”

Then we heard that Mongol’s Chahar khan sent a messenger named Kangkar Baihv together with the Kalka’s, so we sent them 2 bulls and 2 bottles of liquor. The letter from Chahar khan said:” Baturu Cinggis Khan, the ruler of 40 tumen Mongols send regards to Sure Kundulun khan, the ruler of 3 tumen Juxen(meaning plebs in Manchu) that lived near water: How are you? China is our mutual enemy, I heard you were raiding them for the past two years. In this summer I also went to Guangning myself, captured the city and imposed a tribute on the Chinese living there. Now you said you are going to attack Guangning, I warn you there shall be some bad consequences. There had been no grudge between us before, but if those Chinese who have submitted to me got conquered by you, My reputation would be damaged. If you choose to not listen to me and follow my order, the Tengri will witness it. In the past years we used to have maintained diplomatic relationships, then I cut it off because your envoys framed me for being arrogant, if you think what I said was right, you should send the previous envoy to me.” After reading the letter, all princes and ministers were outraged, half of them wanted to kill the messenger, other half wanted to cut the nose and ear of the messenger and send him back. The khan said:” You are right to be angry, but that messenger has nothing to do with these, it’s his khan who wrote bad words in the letter’s faults. I’ll make him stay in the court a bit longer, so I can write a reply full of bad words and order him to take it back to his khan.”

On the 7th day of January, the khan sent Chahar khan a reply:” To Chahar khan: you said:(Baturu Cinggis Khan, the ruler of 40 tumen Mongols send regards to Sure Kundulun khan, the ruler of 3 tumen Juxen that lived near water) why would you look down on us in such impolite manner? Because you were strong? I heard that when the Chinese took Khanbali, all 40 tumen Mongols were captured except 6 tumen of them. And you do not even have full authority over all these 6 tumen. The nomads of the right-wing: the Ordos,the twelve Tvmed and the Ingxebu are all free people, they had nothing to do with you. The 3 tumen left-wing Mongols were not all your subjects either. You do not even have 3 tumen Mongols right now and you looked down on us because of the ancient glories of 40 tumen Mongols. Yes, we 3 tumen Juxen were weak, unlike your 40 tumen Mongols and were unaware of your power. So the goddess of lady Abka(sky) and Banamu(land) favoured us and granted us 8 different states to rule. You then said:(Now you said you are going to attack Guangning, I warn you there shall be some bad consequences.) You are right for saying so if we were your enemy, but we were not! Why would you say such bad words to us who were favoured by the goddesses and looked down at us for the sake of Guangning a Chinese city? You would be absolutely righteous to say these bad words if you could retake Khanbali and save the 40 tumen Mongols who were captured by the Chinese, but have you? Before I launched my campaign against China, you, my Baturu Cinggis Khan, had also attacked them twice. The first time you lost all your armours and camels. The second time, Prince Gergen daicing’s guard drown in the water and nearly 100 of your soldiers were captured. Which big city have you taken? Which general have you captured? Which army have you defeated? Why would the Chinese bribe you? It is only because I attacked China, killed all their men and took their women, that the Chinese were scared of me and wanted to hire you as their mercenary against me! China and Korea have different languages but their cultures are the same, thus they treat each other like their own people, and the same goes for you and us. If you are actually a wise man, you should have said:(I have always hated China, I heard you, my brother-khan, are about to attack them, may the divine helps you to take many cities, defeat many armies. And I would also want to join your force, etc). Alas, isn't that good? Why would you harm me and look down on me, a khan who holds no grudge against you and speaks a different language? The Abka and Banamu will witness if it is just because of the Chinese bribery”

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Karvier OP t1_j05tmxu wrote

By the way, in Manchu language the word Juxen means pleb, low class people. But somehow other nations thought this was the name of Manchus people, thus Manchus were called by outsiders as Jurchen for a long time. And I think Ligdan khan was unaware of the real meaning of this word, so by calling Nurhaci “the ruler of 3 tumen juxen” he unintentionally hurt Nurhaci’s feeling (which was pretty funny)😂.

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utah_teapot t1_j06ux1d wrote

What language did they use for writing these letters? What about system of writing?
Edit: How did they refer to China?

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Karvier OP t1_j06yqcp wrote

These letters were recorded in literary sources written in Manchu language (not necessarily meant they were originally written in this language though ). The Manchus were using Manchu alphabet (a variant of Mongolian alphabet) by that time.

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Karvier OP t1_j071owc wrote

If you wanted to know how to say “China” in Manchu language then it could either be Nikan(it means the China as a country or it could also mean a single Chinese person) or Nikasi(It means the Chinese people or it could be used as a plural form of Nikan)

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Karvier OP t1_j06yur8 wrote

As for your other question I believe you could read these letters again then you’ll figure it out yourself.

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Karvier OP t1_j02e4jq wrote

Btw: I have to cut irrelevant parts from the Manchus’ reply to make it fit the post, that letter was so lengthy!

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Khwarezm t1_j049bn2 wrote

I take it this was just before the Qing conquest of China?

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Karvier OP t1_j04bmd3 wrote

Happened between 1620-1621, five years after Nurhaci became the khan of his people.

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KilgoreTroutPfc t1_j0678z3 wrote

Oh wow so late for the Mongols? Guns were starting to show up on the battlefield around this time weren’t they?

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Karvier OP t1_j067dw6 wrote

Yes, the usage of the gun in warfares was already largely adopted worldwide by that time.

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Yay_for_Pickles t1_j03zvgc wrote

😄

Middle School, is that you?

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Karvier OP t1_j055jun wrote

You mean you read this when you were a middle schooler?That would be cool.

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keestie t1_j05hb9d wrote

I think they mean that the disrespect sounds like something a middle-schooler would employ, but I'm not certain.

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Yay_for_Pickles t1_j09y2ra wrote

No- I have zero skills in those languages. I meant the name-calling, gossiping, and constant deal-making are middle-schooler behavior.

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Iceberg__Slim t1_j056out wrote

Very Cool. Thanks!

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Karvier OP t1_j0577ms wrote

You are welcome! Do you have any thoughts about these exchanges of letters between the khans if I may ask? They were rather colloquial I would say.

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The8thOak t1_j06y1dx wrote

I am fascinated! The way they talk to each other reminds me of my band....I don't get along with my singer, and my bass player's last name is kahn (not Mongol)

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