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Poopy_McTurdFace t1_j29uadf wrote

Reply to comment by Historforum in Fencing or swordsmanship during the during the American revolution by Unable-Anybody-2285

Bayonet fencing would peak in complexity by WWI, but codified systems were being taught a bit before then.

The bayonet fencing systems of the mid 19th century weren't terribly complicated. Top brass just wanted something to teach the infantry since the cavalry and navy had been taught codified systems for martial arts for at least decades beforehand. Henry Angelo Jr, Richard Burton, and McClellan are some officers who wrote bayonet curriculums.

Before that, aside from a few isolated texts, if there was any training beyond fixing/unfixing and just pointing it at the enemy, it was just tips and tricks the drill sergeants would tell their men. Nothing official.

Part of the reason for this was because bayonet charges rarely resulted in contact with the enemy. They usually broke and hauled ass before that happened. If they didn't it would usually result in a massive bloodbath nobody wants. Because of this, standing and fighting man-to-man with bayonet on bayonet was typically a losing prospect, so teaching infantry how to do it would be a waste of everyone's time.

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nospamkhanman t1_j2a5apn wrote

Marines still teach Bayonet fighting as well as melee fighting with your rifle in general.

There isn't much to it honestly and it's not a large focus when doing martial arts.

The most useful thing that is taught is how to counter someone grabbing your weapon.

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jrhooo t1_j2b8zmg wrote

We definitely learned it in the 2000s.

A few relevsnt points here.

  1. They teach bayonet fighting but they don’t spend a ton of time on it.

  2. It is still a useful and relevant skill. Reason being, if you can fight with your rifle WITH a bayonet, you can use the same techniques without one. How to se your rifle as a club/bo staff basically. While you are unlikely to find yourself in a full on fixed bayonet charge in the 21st century, you are not that unlikely to find yourself in a position where you need to beat someone down. (Hypothetical example, CQB in a house and some dude jumps on you or your rifle jams or whatever. You may only have enough time and space to buttstroke them to the face. Gotta have the muscle memory tucked away)

  3. A GREAT point someone explained to me once. Pugil sticks isn’t all about bayonet technique. Its also about FIGHTING. Its a replacement for boxing.

They USED to have boxing in boot camp. It wasnt actually to teach you how to fight. It was because in a civilized society, a LOT of kids had just never been in a real fight. Throwing them in a boxing ring was a way to give them a taste of hitting someone and being hit.

Problem: Strapping the glives on and punching each other in the head is still dangerous, even in a controlled setting. A few recruits got badly hurt. Maybe died? SO, eventually pugil sticks became a good substitute. A less dangerous way to still throw recruits in the circle and tell them, “well there he is. What are you waiting for? Go get him! Attack!”

BONUS NOTE

One of the silliest and yet not at all silly lessons you got in boot - remember the “weapons of opportunity” class? For the test, they made you demonstrate some strikes with an etool (shovel). Then a tent stake. Thrn a rock.

It felt odd at the time. Like, a little specific isn’t it? Are we getting attacked at a camp site? Are we expecting that nothing but shovels and tent poles will be strewn around the battlefield?

BUT if you think about it, that class is actually pretty clever. Its not about those 3 objects.

Its about the idea that random objects in the world only really come in so many form factors.

So they make you practice :

Something thats like a rock

Something thats like a club

Something thats like a pointy stick

So one day in a real fight, when reach out and grab whatever object is within reach, you’ll have a basic idea of the best way to hold it, the best way to strike with it, and where on the other guy to aim for.

“One mind, any weapon” = you can pick up any ivject in the room and have a pretty good natural undertanding of how to attack someone with it.

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MackTUTT t1_j2bestv wrote

Early 90s, I was told by several of the older guys that an e-tool is better than a bayonet and a couple said a tomahawk is the best melee weapon.

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Sinfullyvannila t1_j2c05lh wrote

A tomahawk is just useful in general.

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jrhooo t1_j2c23zv wrote

Yup. The “tactical tomahawk” has gotten kinda popular with a lotta guys.

Light and easy to carry. Makes a solid weapon if needed. Makes good camp tool in general. Can work as a houligsn tool too. (Prying doors open, prying locks, smashing windows etc)

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AdTop5424 t1_j2c7eml wrote

I heard that the bayonet course is no longer run during OSUT for Infantry in the U.S. Army. While it was basically being given adult permission to run with scissors, there was something about sprinting several yards and massacring a sand bag.

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Poopy_McTurdFace t1_j2aaxxe wrote

I've heard that the US army axed thier bayonet course from training, but I don't know for certain. I knew the marines still did.

After WWI bayonet as a martial art was heavily streamlined and simplified as large melees became less and less commonplace.

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DarkDoctor_42 t1_j2ale11 wrote

When I went to Basic back in ‘02 they still did bayonet training. Culmination at the end was the pugel matches, only chance we had to actually knock our drill sergeants off their feet legally.

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FatherD00m t1_j2aoa7d wrote

I’ve always felt cheated out of this. We were set to do pugel matches the day after Nixon died. So it was skipped over.

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zombiepirate t1_j2arjka wrote

And really, what better way to honor Nixon's passing than to knock someone off their feet?

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FatherD00m t1_j2bfvlb wrote

Show off some big D energy. He’d like that I’m sure. At least as the stories go.

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Born2fayl t1_j2b2ckc wrote

I had a drill sergeant roll with me on fire watch duty, one time in basic. I had trained under a Renzo Gracie brown belt for a while before joining and I smoked him. The agreement was, if I win and don’t tell anyone there would be no consequences. We both kept our word. I mean, I’m telling you now, but that doesn’t count. He just didn’t want to risk having to deal with any disrespect from other privates.

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sardaukar2001 t1_j2b8d51 wrote

I did BCT back in 2008 and we didn't do any bayonet training. We did however do Combatives (grappling) training.

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LarryTheHamsterXI t1_j2c6q5l wrote

Just went to basic this summer, no bayonet course. Pugil sticks are the closest we have right now.

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5-On-A-Toboggan t1_j2aytcn wrote

I would guess that they became more common kicking in doors in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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KarmaticIrony t1_j2b3cep wrote

If someone is in melee range with you and you have rifles, the smart thing to do is push/throw/grapple them or retreat as necessary so you or a buddy can shoot them.

A bayonet on the end of your gun's muzzle makes it longer and heavier which are both a disadvantage in close quarters. Given the first point, it's a sacrifice for no real benefit.

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jrhooo t1_j2ba1rk wrote

Also, if someone is in melee range with you, even without a bayo, a good muzzle thump to the face will back them off you enough to follow up with whatever next move is appropriate

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