Submitted by Zestyclose-Advisor71 t3_10glude in history

Hello everyone, I am interested in how the ancient Greeks viewed paranormal events, or what they called paradoxa.

I have been reading the work by the ancient Greek paradoxographer Palaephatus (possibly around 3rd or 2nd century BCE) On Incredible Things (Περὶ ἀπίστων (ἱστοριῶν); Incredibilia). This is one of the earliest account of "rationalization" that I have found with regards to strange paradoxa. For example, here is Palaephatus interpretation of the story of Actaeon being devoured by his own dogs.

>Φασὶν Ἀκταίωνα ὑπὸ τῶν ἰδίων κυνῶν κατᾶ βωδῆναι. τοῦτο δὲ φευδές· κύων γὰρ δεσπότην καὶ τροφέα μάλιστα φιλεῖ, ἄλλως τε καὶ αἱ θηρευτικαὶ πάντας ἀνθρώπους σαίνουσιν. ἔνιοι δέ φασιν ώς Ἄρτεμις μὲν <εἰς ἔλαφον μετέφαλεν> αὐτόν, ἔλαφον δὲ ἀνεῖλον αἱ κύνες. ἐμοὶ δὲ δοκεῖ Ἄρτεμιν μὲν δύνασθαι ὅ τι θέλοι[wants] ποιῆσαι· οὐ μέντοι ἐστὶν ἀληθὲς ἔλαφον ἐς ἀνδρὸς ἢ ἐξ ἐλάφου ἄνδρα γενέσθαι· του]ς δε] μύθους τούτους συνέθεσαν οἱ ποιηταί, ἵνα οἱ ἀκροώμενοι μὴ ὑβριζοιεν εἰς τὸ θεῖον, τὸ δὲ ἀληθὲς ἔχει ὧδε. Ἀκταίων ἧν ἀνὴς τὸ γένος Ἀρκάς, φιλοκύνηγος. οὗτος ἔτρεφεν ἀεὶ κύνας πολλὰς καὶ ἐφήρευεν ἐν τοῖς ὄρεσιν, τῶν δὲ αὑτοῦ πραγμάτων ἠμέλει. οἱ δὲ τότε ἄνθρω | ποι αὐτουργοὶ πάντες ἦσαν οἰκέτας τε οὐκ εἶχον[, ἀλλ' ἑαυτοῖς ἐγεύργουν], καὶ οὖτος ἦν πλουσιώτατος ὃς [αὐτὸς ἐγεώργει καὶ] ἐργατικώτατος ὑπῆρχε. τῷ οὖν Ἀκταίωνι ἀμελοῦντι τῶν οἰκείων, μᾶλλον δὲ κυνηγετοῦντι, διεφθάρη ὁ βίος. ὅτε δὲ οὐκέτι εἶχεν οὐδέν, ἔλεγον οἱ ἄνθρωποι "δείλαιος Ἀκταίων, ὃς ὑπὸ τῶν ἰδίων κυνῶν κατεβρώθη," ὥσθερ καὶ νῦν ἐάν τις πορνοβοσκῶν ἀτυκήσῃ, λέγειν εἰώθαμεν "ὑπὸ τῶν πορνῶν κατεβρώθη." τοιοῦτον δή τι καὶ τὸ περὶ τὸν Ἀκταίωνα γέγονεν. (Palaephatus 1996, 104, 105)
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>They say that Actaeon was devoured by his own dogs. But the story is false, for a dog is most affectionate toward its master and provider, and hunting dogs in particular fawn on everyone. Some, however, say that Artemis changed Actaeon into a deer, and that it was this deer that the dogs killed. Now it seems to me that Artemis can do whatever she wants, yet it is not true that a man became a deer or a deer a man. It is the poets who have made up such myths, so that people who hear them will not commit outrageous acts against divinity.
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>The truth is as follows. Actaeon was an Arcadian who was especially fond of hunting. He always kept a large pack of dogs and hunted with them in the mountains, disregarding his own affairs. Now all the people of those days were dependent on their own labor. They had no servants to do their work, and whoever was the most industrious became the wealthiest. But in the case of Actaeon, his preference for hunting and his lack of attention to his own circumstances causes his livelihood to waste away. When he no longer had anything left, people said: "Alas for Actaeon, who has been devoted by his own hunting dogs." So even today, if a man is unlucky enough to waste his fortune on prostitutes, we are in the habit of saying that he has been "devoured by whores." And this is what happened in the case of Actaeon.
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>(Palaephatus 1996, 30)

Socrates also makes reference to such efforts on in the Phaedrus:

>ἀλλ᾽ εἰ ἀπιστοίην, ὥσπερ οἱ σοφοί, οὐκ ἂν ἄτοπος εἴην, εἶτα σοφιζόμενος φαίην αὐτὴν πνεῦμα Βορέου κατὰ τῶν πλησίον πετρῶν σὺν Φαρμακείᾳ παίζουσαν ὦσαι, καὶ οὕτω δὴ τελευτήσασαν λεχθῆναι ὑπὸ τοῦ Βορέου ἀνάρπαστον [229δ] γεγονέναι—ἢ ἐξ Ἀρείου πάγου: λέγεται γὰρ αὖ καὶ οὗτος ὁ λόγος, ὡς ἐκεῖθεν ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ ἐνθένδε ἡρπάσθη. ἐγὼ δέ, ὦ Φαῖδρε, ἄλλως μὲν τὰ τοιαῦτα χαρίεντα ἡγοῦμαι, λίαν δὲ δεινοῦ καὶ ἐπιπόνου καὶ οὐ πάνυ εὐτυχοῦς ἀνδρός, κατ᾽ ἄλλο μὲν οὐδέν, ὅτι δ᾽ αὐτῷ ἀνάγκη μετὰ τοῦτο τὸ τῶν Ἱπποκενταύρων εἶδος ἐπανορθοῦσθαι, καὶ αὖθις τὸ τῆς Χιμαίρας, καὶ ἐπιρρεῖ δὲ ὄχλος τοιούτων Γοργόνων καὶ Πηγάσων καὶ [229ε] ἄλλων ἀμηχάνων πλήθη τε καὶ ἀτοπίαι τερατολόγων τινῶν φύσεων: αἷς εἴ τις ἀπιστῶν προσβιβᾷ κατὰ τὸ εἰκὸς ἕκαστον, ἅτε ἀγροίκῳ τινὶ σοφίᾳ χρώμενος, πολλῆς αὐτῷ σχολῆς δεήσει. ἐμοὶ δὲ πρὸς αὐτὰ οὐδαμῶς ἐστι σχολή: τὸ δὲ αἴτιον, ὦ φίλε, τούτου τόδε. οὐ δύναμαί πω κατὰ τὸ Δελφικὸν γράμμα γνῶναι ἐμαυτόν: γελοῖον δή μοι φαίνεται
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>If I disbelieved, as the wise men do, I should not be extraordinary; then I might give a rational explanation, that a blast of Boreas, the north wind, pushed her off the neighboring rocks as she was playing with Pharmacea, and [229d] that when she had died in this manner she was said to have been carried off by Boreas. But I, Phaedrus, think such explanations are very pretty in general, but are the inventions of a very clever and laborious and not altogether enviable man, for no other reason than because after this he must explain the forms of the Centaurs, and then that of the Chimaera, and there presses in upon him a whole crowd of such creatures, Gorgons and Pegas, and multitudes [229e] of strange, inconceivable, portentous natures. If anyone disbelieves in these, and with a rustic sort of wisdom, undertakes to explain each in accordance with probability, he will need a great deal of leisure. But I have no leisure for them at all; and the reason, my friend, is this: I am not yet able, as the Delphic inscription has it, to know myself; so it seems to me ridiculous,
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>(Plato 1925, “Plat. Phaedrus 229.”)

Now, many defenders of the paranormal, or of the efficacy of magic, argue that magic fails to work when it is seen by certain people, like a skeptic. For example, the occultist Isaac Bonewits says that there is "Catapsi", a kind of psychic " 'static' that cancels out regular psi powers within its range" (Bonewits 1989, 55).

I was wondering if there was an analogous belief or statement in the ancient world. Did anyone in the ancient world believe that observation by human mortals disrupted any sort of magical or paranormal operation?

Personally, I think I have found one example, from the Hymn to Demeter. In this episode, the goddess Demeter tries to bestow immortality upon the young Demophoon via some sort of secret ritual. However, the ritual was viewed by the handmaid Metaneira. Metaneira saw the ritual, and screamed, disrupting the ritual and preventing Demophoon from achieving immortality.

>ὣς ἄρα φωνήσασα θυώδεϊ δέξατο κόλπῳ
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>χείρεσσ᾽ ἀθανάτῃσι: γεγήθει δὲ φρένα μήτηρ.
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>ὣς ἣ μὲν Κελεοῖο δαΐφρονος ἀγλαὸν υἱὸν
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>Δημοφόωνθ᾽, ὃν ἔτικτεν ἐύζωνος Μετάνειρα,
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>[235] ἔτρεφεν ἐν μεγάροις: ὃ δ᾽ ἀέξετο δαίμονι ἶσος,
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>οὔτ᾽ οὖν σῖτον ἔδων, οὐ θησάμενος [γάλα μητρὸς
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>ἠματίη μὲν γὰρ καλλιστέφανος] Δημήτηρ
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>χρίεσκ᾽ ἀμβροσίῃ ὡσεὶ θεοῦ ἐκγεγαῶτα
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>ἡδὺ καταπνείουσα καὶ ἐν κόλποισιν ἔχουσα:
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>νύκτας δὲ κρύπτεσκε πυρὸς μένει ἠύτε δαλὸν
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>[240] λάθρα φίλων γονέων: τοῖς δὲ μέγα θαῦμ᾽ ἐτέτυκτο,
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>ὡς προθαλὴς τελέθεσκε: θεοῖσι γὰρ ἄντα ἐῴκει.
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>καί κέν μιν ποίησεν ἀγήρων τ᾽ ἀθάνατόν τε,
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>εἰ μὴ ἄρ᾽ ἀφραδίῃσιν[[heedlessness]] ἐύζωνος Μετάνειρα
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>νύκτ᾽[[by night]] ἐπιτηρήσασα[[kept watch]] θυώδεος ἐκ θαλάμοιο
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>[245] σκέψατο: κώκυσεν[[ shriek; wail ]] δὲ καὶ ἄμφω πλήξατο μηρὼ
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>δείσασ᾽ ᾧ περὶ παιδὶ καὶ ἀάσθη μέγα θυμῷ
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>καί ῥ᾽ ὀλοφυρομένη ἔπεα πτερόεντα προσηύδα:
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>τέκνον Δημοφόων, ξείνη σε πυρὶ ἔνι πολλῷ
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>κρύπτει, ἐμοὶ δὲ γόον καὶ κήδεα λυγρὰ τίθησιν.
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>[250] ὣς φάτ᾽ ὀδυρομένη: τῆς δ᾽ ἄιε δῖα θεάων.
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>τῇ δὲ χολωσαμένη καλλιστέφανος Δημήτηρ
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>παῖδα φίλον, τὸν ἄελπτον ἐνὶ μεγάροισιν ἔτικτε,
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>χείρεσσ᾽ ἀθανάτῃσιν ἀπὸ ἕθεν ἧκε πέδονδε,
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>ἐξανελοῦσα πυρός, θυμῷ κοτέσασα μάλ᾽ αἰνῶς,
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>[255] καί ῥ᾽ ἄμυδις προσέειπεν ἐύζωνον Μετάνειραν:
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>νήιδες ἄνθρωποι καὶ ἀφράδμονες οὔτ᾽ ἀγαθοῖο
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>αἶσαν ἐπερχομένου προγνώμεναι οὔτε κακοῖο:
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>καὶ σὺ γὰρ ἀφραδίῃσι[[heedlessness]] τεῇς νήκεστον ἀάσθης.
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>ἴστω γὰρ θεῶν ὅρκος, ἀμείλικτον Στυγὸς ὕδωρ,
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>[260] ἀθάνατόν κέν τοι καὶ ἀγήραον ἤματα πάντα
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>παῖδα φίλον ποίησα καὶ ἄφθιτον ὤπασα τιμήν:
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>νῦν δ᾽ οὐκ ἔσθ᾽ ὥς κεν θάνατον καὶ κῆρας ἀλύξαι:
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>τιμὴ δ᾽ ἄφθιτος αἰὲν ἐπέσσεται, οὕνεκα γούνων
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>ἡμετέρων ἐπέβη καὶ ἐν ἀγκοίνῃσιν ἴαυσεν.
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>[265] ὥρῃσιν δ᾽ ἄρα τῷ γε περιπλομένων ἐνιαυτῶν
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>παῖδες Ἐλευσινίων πόλεμον καὶ φύλοπιν αἰνὴν
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>αἰὲν ἐν ἀλλήλοισιν συνάξουσ᾽ ἤματα πάντα.
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>εἰμὶ δὲ Δημήτηρ τιμάοχος, ἥτε μέγιστον
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>ἀθανάτοις θνητοῖς τ᾽ ὄνεαρ καὶ χάρμα τέτυκται.
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>[270] ἀλλ᾽ ἄγε μοι νηόν τε μέγαν καὶ βωμὸν ὑπ᾽ αὐτῷ
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>τευχόντων πᾶς δῆμος ὑπαὶ πόλιν αἰπύ τε τεῖχος
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>Καλλιχόρου καθύπερθεν ἐπὶ προὔχοντι κολωνῷ.
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>ὄργια δ᾽ αὐτὴ ἐγὼν ὑποθήσομαι, ὡς ἂν ἔπειτα
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>εὐαγέως ἔρδοντες ἐμὸν νόον ἱλάσκοισθε.
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>When she had so spoken, she took the child in her fragrant bosom with her divine hands: and his mother was glad in her heart. So the goddess nursed in the palace Demophoon, wise Celeus' goodly son whom well-girded Metaneira bare. [235] And the child grew like some immortal being, not fed with food nor nourished at the breast: for by day [236a] rich-crowned Demeter would anoint him with ambrosia as if he were the offspring of a god and breathe sweetly upon him as she held him in her bosom. But at night she would hide him like a brand in the heart of the fire, [240] unknown to his dear parents. And it wrought great wonder in these that he grew beyond his age; for he was like the gods face to face. And she would have made him deathless and unageing, had not well-girded Metaneira in her heedlessness kept watch by night from her sweet-smelling chamber and [245] spied. But she wailed and smote her two hips, because she feared for her son and was greatly distraught in her heart; so she lamented and uttered winged words:
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>“Demophoon, my son, the strange woman buries you deep in fire and works grief and bitter sorrow for me.”
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>[250] Thus she spoke, mourning. And the bright goddess, lovely-crowned Demeter, heard her, and was wroth with her. So with her divine hands she snatched from the fire the dear son whom Metaneira had born unhoped-for in the palace, and cast him from her to the ground; for she was terribly angry in her heart. [255] Forthwith she said to well-girded Metaneira:
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>“Witless are you mortals and dull to foresee your lot, whether of good or evil, that comes upon you. For now in your heedlessness[[ἀφραδίῃσι]] you have wrought folly past healing; for —be witness the oath of the gods, the relentless water of Styx — [260] I would have made your dear son deathless and unaging all his days and would have bestowed on him everlasting honor, but now he can in no way escape death and the fates. Yet shall unfailing honor always rest upon him, because he lay upon my knees and slept in my arms. [265] But, as the years move round and when he is in his prime, the sons of the Eleusinians shall ever wage war and dread strife with one another continually. Lo! I am that Demeter who has share of honor and is the greatest help and cause of joy to the undying gods and mortal men. [270] But now, let all the people build me a great temple and an altar below it and beneath the city and its sheer wall upon a rising hillock above Callichorus. And I myself will teach my rites, that hereafter you may reverently perform them and so win the favour of my heart.”
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>(Anon 1914, "HH 2.")

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I was wondering if anyone had any other examples. I am looking for any other references where mortal observation disrupted or ruined magic, or some sort of paranormal phenomena. If there is some reference, then please let me know. Thank you. =).

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Works Cited:

Anon. 1914. "HH 2." The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Homeric Hymns. Cambridge, MA.: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann Ltd. Online. Perseus Digital Library. Tufts University. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0138%3Ahymn%3D2.

Palaephatus. 1996. On Unbelievable Tales: Peri Apiston : With Notes and Greek Text from the 1902 B.G. Teubner Edition. Translated and Edited by Jacob Stern. Wauconda, IL: Bolchazy-Carducci Publishers.

Plato. 1925. “Plat. Phaedrus 229.” In Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 9 translated by Harold N. Fowler. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. Online. Perseus Digital Library. Tufts University. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D229.

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non_linear_time t1_j55vqdk wrote

The Homeric Hymn to Demeter most likely represents a symbolic presentation of the initiation ritual to the mystery cult of Demeter headquartered at Eleusis. Rather than magic being canceled, the discovery of Demophoon in the fire and Metaneira's dismay is generally considered to be symbolic of the penalty of disbelief suffered by those outside the cult who fail to recognize the renewing force of Demeter's power. This kind of thing is more about building a sense of community cohesion through shared belief (running counter to beliefs outside the cult, i.e. Metaneira) rather than a justification of magical forces. The cult most likely taught people to expect a different experience of the afterlife, not a powerful force for daily life through belief in the transformative power of magic. Gods didn't do magic, witches (Hecate/Medea) did magic, and it was considered fairly scary and weird (and barbaric), but was generally described in a pharmacological manner in which belief didn't have much to do with the effectiveness of the herbs.

This post sounds a bit like you're fishing for info to support some sort of pan-cultural magical system based on "pagan" deities without knowing enough about the structure of the culture and religion that gave rise to those stories. If that is true, please, OP, do not go to ancient texts looking for validation of your belief systems. There are no universal truths in historical documents, only human memories, and ancient people believing in something doesn't make it any more or less truthful than anything anyone believes in today. Taking these works out of context for your own purposes is an exercise in modern myth-making. Perhaps that is your goal, which is fine, but it is not historical research.

If you are looking for more sources about rationalization, you should explore Euhemerus. You might also want to get a hold of Athanassakis' translation of the Homeric Hymns for a more up to date introduction so you can understand these sources as documents more clearly. Your reading of Plato also needs some serious contextual work considering Socrates is essentially a practical ethical philosopher who, in your own passage cited, could care less about anything that smacks of magical forces because he was questioning inconsistency between the ideological form and actual function of his society, not their cultural religious system.

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Zestyclose-Advisor71 OP t1_j56xg9h wrote

First, I can assure you, my intent to forge any sort of personal mythology or cosmos. Rather, my intent was to investigate any debates that ancient Greeks had regarding the reality, or unreality, of various extraordinary or supra-mundane phenomena.

Thank you very much for pointing out the distinction between the Gods, vs. Hecate. I was wondering, IYO, was there a kind of dualism going on in the cosmology of many Greeks? For example, did various people who were engaged in, shall we say, "unorthdox" practices call upon deities or forces that were considered unsavory, such as Hecate or the Titans?

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non_linear_time t1_j58cjbb wrote

Cool. The Titans were only disempowered, not gone unless they were imprisoned in Tartarus for offenses against Zeus and his divine order. Prometheus, for instance, was a very important culture deity who was said to deliver a variety of useful technologies to humanity, in addition to the fancier stories about the gift of fire and the instructions for how to gift meat to the gods while still having a nice feast for humanity without offending Zeus by giving him the crummier portion. There was nothing at all unsavory about asking him, or, say Rhea, the Titan queen of childbirth, from attending to your problems alongside the Olympians who might be bothered to show up (they were probably too busy receiving awesome sacrifices somewhere, though). Titans and Olympians who didn't have a beef with each other cooperated on shared domains, but also sometimes competed over them. Zeus procreated with many Titans.

Now appealing to Hecate could be a bit unsavory because she was an underworld goddess not contained within Zeus' pantheon the way Persephone was, but she was also seen as an earthly household deity. Her cult was widespread, often worshipped as an aspect of Artemis (earth)/Selene (sky)/Hecate (underworld). There is no single, definitive version because the very international Hellenistic culture of the Mediterranean of the second half of the 1st millennium BCE had a lot of different local traditions that are incompletely and unevenly preserved. Depending on the region where you wanted to focus, you might have totally different stories representing probably their own ritual practices loosely affiliated with other Hecate cults by Panhellenic stories.

Sorry I can't muster more than that. I'm pretty tired.

I'm sure there are some texts on knowledge about intentional practices, like herbaria, and maybe more esoteric practices, but I don't know those off the top of my head.

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Ferengi_Earwax t1_j56koyd wrote

Good post but I think you're going the wrong direction with it. This seems to be a rational person just saying the truth of what some Greeks believed and that not many dared to write about. He's not the only ancient Greek to think the mythological stories weren't literal truth. There's a long line from these guys to educated Greek monks in the monasteries even suggesting they were simply parables.

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Zestyclose-Advisor71 OP t1_j56w7dp wrote

Oh, I know. I guess I was just wondering if there were any surviving documents or debates surrounding how to interpret various paradoxa. I know that in ancient Greece there was wide debate regarding the hermeneutics and exegesis of various texts like the Iliad and the Odyssey, and that these various exegetical techniques are still being used today, such as in the interpretation of the Christian scriptures, and elsewhere.

What I was wondering is if there were any members of the "realist" school (as in, people who thought that the various extraordinary elements of the texts and various tales actually happened and how they would explain why such events were less likely today. Thank you.

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Ferengi_Earwax t1_j56ylo6 wrote

I understand. I also should have chosen better words than "going in the wrong direction". Study whatever fascinates you. I believe we would have had more recorded words of "realists" if Socrates set a precedent to write things down, and it says alot about the culture where others didn't feel they could write these down without "blaspheming" essentially. Forgive me I'm not an expert but it reminds me about a Greek philosopher I heard about recently on a podcast about this very subject (if the Greeks believed the myths were literal). Aristarches maybe erasthones maybe? Can't remember ATM, would have to look it up. Supposedly he was writing and spreading the idea that they weren't literal, until the very moment he came down with a deadly disease. He then retracted everything he said and went to offer a sacrifice to some God looking to be healed after he continued to get worse. Sorry for the vagueness.

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zeiandren t1_j55q7q3 wrote

Neither example there sounds like belief in some sort of fantasy anti magic cone coming out of people. They both seem like mundane doubt: “hey, my neighbor said he saw King Charles come out of the woods and steal my pies, but no one else saw that, so probably not”. Where it’s not even a disbelief of the existence of King Charles, but like, a skeptical view towards an outlandish story

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Son_of_Kong t1_j56p4b1 wrote

This is Roman, not Greek, but two examples from Livy come to mind.

First, he suggests that the she-wolf who raised Romulus and Remus was not an animal but that "lupa" was a euphemism for prostitute. Back when people practiced exposure (one might say fourth-trimester abortion), it was not uncommon for women who couldn't have children to scout such locations in the hope of claiming a healthy infant who had been abandoned.

Later he comments on the story that the second king of Rome, Numa the Lawgiver, had regular congress with a wood nymph who instructed him on the laws and customs he was to implement. Livy surmises that there was no such nymph, but that Numa knew the crude and superstitious populace would more readily accept his reforms if they supposedly came from a higher power.

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Zestyclose-Advisor71 OP t1_j56vp71 wrote

I just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to reply. It is very appreciated. Thank you.

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TheRazaman t1_j58kzvo wrote

If you're looking for more in-depth responses with works cited, like your initial post, I suggest asking over at /r/AskHistorians . It can take a while to get a response because they will take time to ensure the answer is supported by scholarly research / arguments. Great question and much more detailed than the type normally posted here.

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eatbetweenthelines t1_j55c9pu wrote

I mean... is this history or something theoretical?

I'm guessing not historical at all.

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MildElevation t1_j55n0k1 wrote

I mean it's anthropological, but I don't see how it's not historiography if it's looking for written sources on the period.

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KnudsonRegime t1_j55vr3j wrote

I don’t have any references handy, but I have anecdotal evidence that supports the idea of the super mundane being affected by the viewer.

Essentially all of the non-divinatory mysticism of the Near East, Europe and Northern Africa requires the practitioner to be ritually clean; physically, mentally, and spiritually. A key element in achieving that state is often isolation from the mundane world, with the duration of that isolation being directly proportional to the power of the magical working being performed. If the intent is to directly communicate with or control a super mundane entity the requirements for isolation can get pretty extreme; spending 40 days in the wilderness with extended periods of fasting and stuff like that.

In addition to isolation during preparation, secrecy during the working is explicitly required. I can’t think of any examples where multiple people are prohibited from participating in a working. But the requirements for achieving the necessary level of purity often prohibit speech and combined with the other requirements it would be extremely problematic to involve multiple people.

Problematic ranging from the magic simply not working to the summoned being obliterating or possessing the practitioner. So the stakes are pretty high to get it right. The overall implication is that if you want to summon angels or demons or bend the very fabric of existence it’s not a party trick. It’s something done by an individual, in isolation.

There are plenty of less esoteric mystic examples of super mundane practices requiring isolation. In Judaism only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies and speak to G-d on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant. Elijah carried the dead body of Zarephath’s son upstairs, apart from the others, and brought him back to life. Elisha did something similar in Shunem where he laid on top of a dead boy and after some time apart from the others he took the now living boy to his mother. Peter did the same with Tabitha in Joppa where he explicitly cleared the room and brought her back to life.

Conversely, there are many examples of public displays of super mundane acts in the Bible. The feeding of the 5,000, resurrections, casting out of evil spirits and all kinds of things In Exodus. The Rod of Aaron turning into a snake and eating the snake conjured by Pharaoh’s magi. These public events are treated specially because they were witnessed by regular people and demonstrate that they were of divine origin. The super mundane that didn’t have to be practiced in private to witness the results (magic was accepted as real, it was the fact these events were public that made them notable).

I used a lot of Biblical examples because there’s little separation between the mystical practices of Sumerian inspired Babylonians, the Jews, Egyptians, Greeks and Islam. The deities, beings, spirits and creatures vary, but the actual practices involved are not very different. All demand privacy and secrecy. Only certain individuals could engage in these practices and the public are prohibited from even knowing about what goes on.

The implication being that the involvement of, and even the presence of, the uninitiated and unclean will prevent the super mundane/paranormal from being actualized. It cannot manifest except in the presence of the pure, the believer. The exceptions to this invariably involve the direct intervention of a deity (Achilles, Hercules, Moses, Gilgamesh, etc… all had direct involvement with deities).

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Zestyclose-Advisor71 OP t1_j56zb04 wrote

I have heard similar things happening in the ancient mysteries. Don't quote me, but I think it was Alcibiades who was accused of being part of a conspiracy of exposing the Eleusinian Mysteries.

I have heard (but don't quote me) that a big part of the Greek idea of thrēskeia (θρησκεία) was the idea of ritual purity, and the avoidance of ritual pollution or stain, or miasma (μίασμα). What what I have heard, if you screwed up a ritual, or if an unclean person were to enter in the presence of something considered especially sacred or attuned to the divine, is that there might be an outbreak of some spiritual pollution, that would attract alastores (ἀλάστορες), or vengeful spirits.

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KnudsonRegime t1_j575lni wrote

Indeed. The presence of the impure could act like a gateway of sorts and the vengeful spirits/demons could enter the world and cause all sorts of problems. I think it’s supporting evidence of the belief that normal people in general were capable of derailing magic by their mere presence.

Much like someone who has the power of invisibility, but it only works when no one is looking. Which I think is what Palaephatus is getting at.

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-introuble2 t1_j5654sv wrote

Surely not exactly what you're looking for; I can't recall something. But perhaps these are possibly relevant in a really broader way as a disturbance of rites:

Plutarch writes about Agesilaus II, king of Sparta [396 BCE ca] that after a vision he tried to perform a sacrifice in Aulis using with his own seer for the ritual, against the customs of Boiotenas, who forbade the rite and threw away the sacrificial animal [Plut. Ages. 6.4-6]. The incindent had been narrated previously by Xenophon [Xen. Hell. 3.4] but with no claimed reason. Check also Paus. 3.9.3-5 where more possibly this disruption comes after some boasting [?].

Also one more where a priest seems asking for no disturbance before some ritual [?]... Heliodorus Aeth. 4.5: 'καὶ οἱ λοιποὶ πάντες ἔξιτε· τρίποδά τις καὶ δάφνην καὶ πῦρ καὶ λιβανωτὸν παραθέσθω μόνον, ὀχλείτω δὲ μηδὲ εἷς ἕως ἂν προσκαλέσωμαι.' Προσέταττε ταῦτα ὁ Χαρικλῆς καὶ ἐγένετο. Not aware of the plot here, it would need surely good checking before use.

You may also find of some interest Polybius [Plb. 6.56.6ff] where a general approach on Romans' rites, beliefs, religion [as his comparison somehow ?], but really not to the point.

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Blakut t1_j56vtpe wrote

The gaze was always linked to powerful things in myths and legends, so why not?

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doktorbulb t1_j5747fr wrote

There's a lecture by Cicero, on the mystery of a loud noise heard near Athens- ( A bit later, clearly, but in the same vein ; might be helpful in charting the evolution of the skeptical method to the Romans...)

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Petal_Chatoyance t1_j57220u wrote

Your mistake is that you are looking for magic where the authors entire intention is to disprove that it exists. Every single one of these examples are saying one thing together: "There is no magic, there are no gods, people are just using colloquialisms and poetic language to describe ordinary events and everyone is foolishly taking it literally."

THAT is what is being said here in these examples. The authors are not trying to explain catapsi or any other magical ability. They are saying that these stories are falsely invoking magic and gods to explain people stupidly ruining their own lives in various ways.

That's all. That is what the words clearly, blatantly, obviously say. If you see anything else in those words, it is because you are coming to them with the desperate hope that you have found something about thaumaturgy in the writings and not seeing them clearly for what they actually mean.

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