Did your heating fail to keep your temp up last weekend when it was below 10 deg?

Submitted by Blecher_onthe_Hudson t3_zye1x3 in jerseycity

I'm curious how many people's heating systems were challenged last weekend. Mine was, 67-8 was the best it could do at times. I have a vacant rental with a new system design that dropped as low as 66. If you were in it would you be complaining, or understanding that 10 deg is very cold in NJ?

My plumber and I are experimenting with using 22" wide wall units with a blower fan instead of the typical hot water baseboard heating. That stuff makes a small room even smaller, and looks like crap after a few years. Furniture up against it also limits it's effectiveness.

This is what the temp in the unit was like last week with the temp set to 70:

​

https://preview.redd.it/59wlsoeq1w8a1.png?width=408&format=png&auto=webp&s=870d3801f2508917612cf45f1fc18c8c08929501

22

Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

AbazabaYouMyOnlyFren t1_j25gdfg wrote

You have an insulation problem.

34

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j25hxb5 wrote

Yes, old brick houses are uninsulated and it's very difficult insulating without gutting them. It is what it is, so you need to pump in enough BTUs.

18

JerseyCityGeordie t1_j25orvb wrote

We are in an old brownstone in DTJC and we have always been aware this could happen during a really tough cold snap. We would never complain to our landlord about it getting below whatever the regulation is because we know what we signed up for when renting an uninsulated brownstone built in the mid-1800s (also because she’s always been a great landlord).

16

PuzzleheadedNYer t1_j28vs7m wrote

I have one also and it’s driving me insane to find out where the drafts are.

2

JerseyCityGeordie t1_j25o9fv wrote

My fiancé and I keep our apartment between 64-67 during the day and 60-63 at night (sometimes turn the heat off completely at night and it goes lower). I don’t mind at all, saves us money (and better for the environment).

I think people should be understanding but the fact that you are even worried means you’re one of the few good landlords left around here.

10

robin_tern t1_j25l0k4 wrote

Had to crank my boiler up to 210, this is a hot-water system, I recall you have steam which I suppose you can't crank up, steam is steam.

Edit: sorry just noticed you are indeed talking about a hot water system, what temperature is your boiler set to?

Robin.

7

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j25yaxn wrote

Funny, didn't even occur to me to adjust the water temperature up on my own boiler. We just put on sweaters! The heaters are being fed from the hot water heater which is set to its top temperature of around 140.

The issue isn't the BTUs of the water heater but of the the radiators. I could have gained 15% with the higher fan speed but I think expecting a tenant to screw around turning up and down the fan speed when there's a cold snap is probably too much. Or is it? Same thing with the fan noise, anyone like us with window air conditioners just sucks it up about the noise, and the higher fan speed is far less noisy than an air conditioner, but I'm hesitant to go there.

3

SonOfMcGee t1_j2700g1 wrote

I used to own a small condo in town that did both hot water and heat (standard baseboard radiators) from a single hot water heater. It was a nifty little system. The heat was just controlled by a recirculation pump connected to the thermostat. Meanwhile on the hot water side, there was a mixing valve with a temperature-sensitive element that would blend in cold water to prevent scalding.
This meant we could turn the water heater up to its max setting for the purpose of more powerful heating but still get safe water out the tap.
Is this how your place is set up (aside from it not being baseboard)?

2

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j27bzke wrote

Exactly so. I imagine the size threshold of where it works to be rather small, but mine are 450' and it works fine, without the complexity of boilers or expensive & finicky direct vent mod-con tankless boilers. Also, doing the direct vent on an attached rowhouse can be pretty difficult.

2

EliotHudson t1_j28gddk wrote

You mentioned window air conditioners. Do you by chance still have them in the windows? Because when people forget to remove them from the windows during the winter season it’s like having huge holes in your walls.

2

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j290nw9 wrote

Lol, yes that's true, and I sometimes have to tell tenants to get their conditioners out. But no the the ACs are out. The really stealth heat leak is when people don't actually shut their windows all the way. They close it so that there's no opening at the bottom but very often the sashes are not meeting in the middle and air is blowing through. You have to be sure the two sashes are meeting properly and use the window locks which pull them together. Every fall I have to go around the house checking each and every window to make sure it's actually closed.

3

keepseeing444 t1_j26cf6g wrote

Maybe add thermal curtains on all the windows to keep the heat inside? I have below zero rated mini split system but couldn’t keep up in -10 wind chill so I had to use oil filled space heater for supplemental heat to bring it up to 70. This is with spray foam insulation in an old brick house. If I had to do it all over again I would install gas fired hydronic radiant floor heating with mini split system for back up heat and AC.

5

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j26cx68 wrote

I put suspended pex hydronic radiant under my 2" thick terrazzo kitchen floor when I renovated it and removed the baseboard. Works like a charm, warm on the feet.

1

keepseeing444 t1_j26fc0e wrote

Nice! That’s my one big regret when I did my reno. I should have paid up for floor heating but my plumber asked for too much. Neighbor across the street has it on garden level on poured concrete and he can hit 80 even in February.

2

pixel_of_moral_decay t1_j25ooqm wrote

Over the weekend it looks like it was inadequate. I keep things a little cooler but my PTAC didn't even run constantly those days.

For the rest though, that looks way too much like short cycling to me. Inadequate insulation might be part of it, but I'd try increasing the temperature differential.

Most things are not terribly efficient at the start/end of the cycle. The more on/offs you have, the more time it's spending in that state. Either that or the thermostat is too close to the unit and as the heat rises the cooler air in the rest of the room gets to it pretty quickly.

I found increasing my differential to 1.5-2 degrees vs the standard of 1 to be a game changer efficiency wise. Much less starts/stops. 1-2 degree jumps/drops in temperature in the room aren't a big deal, I'm not that sensitive. Not to mention it's a lot less stress on the system not doing so many starts stops. Oh and noise is better too. I don't care about white noise in the background. Starting/stopping however can get annoying.

The other thing to look at is fan speed. If the fan speed is too low, you can end up with a warm pocket in the room, then when the system turns off the pocket moves and it starts back up. Higher fan speed will distribute air better resulting in less cycles and more consistent temp. Smarter thermostats can even go high for a bit then go low to maintain like the ecobee.

3

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j25w9pb wrote

Thanks for thoughtful response. The system is kind of idiosyncratic so some of what you say doesn't apply. Short cycling is an issue with something like a steam system or PTAC, but this is actually a small apartment being heated by its water heater!

The cycling is the on/off of the fan in the wall heaters, not the cycling of the water heater itself. The challenge it had during the cold weather wasn't the BTUs of water heater but the amount of radiation it could transmit through the radiators. I'm using a Nest thermostat provided by PSEG for free, I haven't seen a setting for temp differential but I can hunt around for it.

It's also interesting what you say about the fan noise. This is something new to me, I'm used to passive radiators and I've been unsure how to approach it. These units actually have two fan speeds, but the higher speed definitely seems intrusive to me. I'm curious how loud a PTAC is, what would you compare it to? I'm assuming that a quality residential PTAC isn't as loud as what I've experienced in motels.

3

pixel_of_moral_decay t1_j269mnb wrote

I’d suggest playing with temp differential if possible. There’s pros and cons to high vs low, it really depends on your priorities. Noise vs energy efficiency vs equipment stress. To me the old standard of 1F is excessively tight. Heating wise I’m ok with 2F, which means it starts/stops a lot less.

As far fan noise, that’s a trade off too. In my experience your brain ignores steady sounds pretty easily. I forgot earlier I had the dryer running until the cycle ended. That hum is just something we filter out when we get used to it. On/off however is jolting. You don’t really adjust to that. Modern better systems are obviously quieter than those hotel units but never silent. That’s a lot of air moving through a small space. Physics comes into play. Central heating with multiple registers each with less airflow will be quieter. But still not silent. You still hear it turn on/off. But less airflow makes it less obvious.

I don’t think there’s hard rights/wrongs here. It’s just what you prioritize in what situations. My bedroom I care more about noise, so I overcool it at night when it’s time for bed, then have a higher differential and low fan speed. That lets me keep it cool in the summer and not turn on so much. In the living room I let the thermostat control the fan speed so it will be low if possible (maintaining temp mostly). I care less about noise.

2

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j26awxp wrote

>I’d suggest playing with temp differential if possible. There’s pros and cons to high vs low, it really depends on your priorities. Noise vs energy efficiency vs equipment stress.

Like I said, because it's just a fan not a compressor system or boiler, there's no efficiency hit or equipment stress to the cycling. The fan noise is literally like having a table or box fan in the room, but some people are more sensitive to noise than others. My MiL freaks out about noise, she runs from the kitchen if you turn on the range hood! But she does the same if I turn on the lights, it's a great way to get rid of her...

2

robin_tern t1_j25xhpb wrote

So you can't increase the boiler temperature without risking scalding your tenants? I imagine there would be a way to increase the heating water temperature separate to the house hot water, even on a combined system.

My house was struggling to get to 65 with the boiler set to the default 180 degrees, I increased to 210 and things got much better.

Robin.

1

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j260yu9 wrote

The tank cannot be increased beyond where it is set. The water heater has a mixing valve for the domestic hot water so the tank temperature is irrelevant to it. If your water heater doesn't have a mixing valve it should, not only does it create effectively more hot water from your tank, but your tank should be set to at least 130 to eliminate the possibility of legionella breeding in your system.

2

robin_tern t1_j25qcbl wrote

A good response for those with PTAC.

OP has hot water boiler with baseboards, so no fans.

Robin.

1

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j25wlg9 wrote

As I responded above I actually do have fans, the whole point of what I'm trying is to eliminate baseboards.

2

Jimmoe t1_j25v8cm wrote

Pick up a couple of oil-filled space heaters for the tenants, and if the renters are paying for electric, shave some money off of that month's rent. That's how we cope with cold weather in our brick rowhouse. Heat the room you are in, and wear warm clothes.

3

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j25zvth wrote

Yeah, that's what I did in this unit before it actually had heat! The only heater it had was an old style 'gas on gas' stove with a convection heating unit on the side. The bedroom at the other end of the apartment got pretty cold and I provided an electric radiator. But electric radiator should not be part of the plan in my opinion.

But your response illustrates the conundrum I pointed out far up thread of where homeowners feel ok improvising while some renters feel their climate should be perfect no matter what's going on with the weather.

Years ago just after I bought a building and had the oil boiler replaced with gas I got a February call from a tenant saying it was freezing in the apartment. In a panic that the new boiler had failed I hustled up there with an infrared thermometer and found the apartment was 70° everywhere. The tenant was standing there in shorts and a tank top, and when I said the apartment was perfectly warm and maybe she should put on some clothes she screamed at me "that's bullshit!"

4

Jimmoe t1_j261izj wrote

Hah. Good tenants are worth their weight in gold; bad tenants are a leaky bag of shit. This is a much more expensive solution, but what about a heat pump to augment your hot water system. It'll take care of your air conditioning needs too, and you'll probably snag some sort of tax rebate.

5

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j2647jq wrote

A two head minisplit would be a fantastic solution for this apartment, but it's rather expensive and I do not believe the 60A electric service to the unit could handle the load. But I actually have not really looked into it even though I have been harboring fantasies of doing just that for my own apartment, mostly for the air conditioning. Our New Jersey electricity is so damn expensive I have a hard time believing that a minisplit can compete with gas no matter what they say.

2

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j269odm wrote

Huh, it seems an 18k BTU 2 head minisplit will only need a 20A circuit! But as I've found with the current project, sizing heating for these uninsulated & leaky apartments is not easy, it would suck to spend all that money and still not have enough heat for the cold snap.

2

wasting_-my-_time t1_j28ebk6 wrote

I have three heat pumps, one per floor, and had no trouble keeping the house over 70 even on the coldest days. They run on 20A circuits. My electric bill has been shockingly low. But we also haven't had a really cold day in years. My December bill (reading on 12/12) was $157. That's my highest bill. If I remember I'll post the next one

0

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j2903w2 wrote

What do you call a really cold day? One of my sources said we were at 7°, it's a really cold day in my book and I've lived in the area my whole life.

I assume you have more than one room per floor, how is the heat distributed around?

2

wasting_-my-_time t1_j296ncr wrote

Really cold is the weather we had here last week or the polar vortex winter from 5-6 years ago. I'm in Hamilton Park and stayed toasty with the heat pumps.

Yes I do. It's a ducted mini-splits. Fujitsu has a fantastic low profile air handler. I have one in a wall and two in the ceilings.

2

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j29a3pq wrote

Wow, that sounds extremely cool but something that's not installed other than as part of a major reno.

2

cassiedanger t1_j263gwf wrote

Mine was set at 67 and 58 was the warmest I was able to get, however the thermo is in the small kitchen and directly next to the boiler so it’s cheating. The living room and bedrooms were significantly colder. My building is old and superbly shitty though.

3

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j264qaw wrote

Did you complain to the manager or just figure that the cold snap would pass? Do you recall at what outdoor temperature it started to not keep up?

2

cassiedanger t1_j2653v1 wrote

I was recovering from Covid and was both contagious and brain foggy so I didn’t bother - we’ve had the super up here six times to “fix” the heat since I moved in 6 weeks ago. Won’t turn off won’t turn on back and forth forever. Finally get it working and then that happened. At one point a few weeks back it was 90+ inside so we left our AC units in, I put plastic and tape over those and then went back to bed. The list of things I want fixed before I pay for January is as long as my arm.

2

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j266p2j wrote

Ughh, that sounds like incompetence rather than a real equipment problem. Surely they simply replaced the thermostat? PSEG is giving Nests away!

2

cassiedanger t1_j26en8v wrote

The thermostat was replaced twice but the issue initially was the pump was circulating the hot water to the radiators without ever shutting off? Honestly it’s been a mess.

2

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j26i1i3 wrote

That's bizarre, it's not that complicated! Thermostat closes a 24v switch and the relay in the boiler turns the pump on, opens and it goes off. If it's not the thermostat its the relay.

2

Recurringferry t1_j264cz7 wrote

I live in a condo with electric heating (forced air). On the days it dropped to 10 at night, the hvac heating couldn't get above 65 or so, even with the auxiliary heating kicking in.

I have a small electric space heater in bedroom and that kept me warm for a couple of days

3

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j266cq3 wrote

I'm betting you were not alone. Are you in old or new construction?

3

Recurringferry t1_j266n6d wrote

It's about 20 years old. I am pretty sure everyone in my development (~200 units) were going through the same. I may look into a second portable space heater for my living room

3

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j2676ir wrote

>It's about 20 years old.

Lol, that's 'new' to those of us living in 120-160 year old houses!

3

Slight_Paint4487 t1_j2a0fbh wrote

Depends what kind of landlord you’ve been. If it’s the first issue with heat and you’ve communicated you’re working on it, fine. No problem.

If you’re like my landlord, and too cheap to call a proper plumber when we’ve already complained numerous times about temps dropping below 60 just this fall, I’m not going to be understanding.

3

glo46 t1_j27ed03 wrote

I have a 1860s 4 story brownstone and my good ol boiler works like a charm for all 4 stories. It's gas w/ water. That being said, the previous owners dropped the ceiling(the beautiful original crown molding is hidden out of sight) and also put up drywall covering the bricks. So the space to heat up is less.

As for my tenants, only had one complain at around 70° so i just cranked it up

2

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j27tmk6 wrote

Wow that's a lot of space to lose, especially assuming they studded out the brick wall with at least 2*4 for insulation.

2

robin_tern t1_j27vdhw wrote

Assuming your boiler is in the basement like mine, with four stories you need to have the pressure up at 25 psi to make it up to the top.

Have you sprung any leaks?

Robin.

1

glo46 t1_j27w8ah wrote

No leaks so far! However I don't have a basement, so my boiler is on my first floor. My 3rd & 4th floors are small 1 bedrooms so they luckily don't use too much heat.

2

glo46 t1_j27wjyn wrote

My water heater though definitely shows signs of previous leaks and is due for a replacement due to age. That being said, it still heats up water like a champ (although there's only 4 people in the building so it doesn't need to work that hard)

2

DifficultyNext7666 t1_j2876hy wrote

I was out of town so I'm just hoping power didn't go out while I was gone and the pipes froze.

I should have gotten warning if it went under 50 from my thermostat but well see... hopefully we kept power in the heights

2

DeepFriedAsses t1_j2carve wrote

Really depends on you and the character you've demonstrated so far. Are you an accommodating landlord I can trust not to fuck me? Or are you a greedy shadeball? One of the two gets my understanding, the other gets the complaint.

2

garth_meringue t1_j25dvzt wrote

Isn't the regulation that the heat needs to be at least 68 overnight? Are you trying to feel out if you can get away with being a scofflaw, or if your tenant will report you?

0

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j25ip7r wrote

Sure, you can look at it that way, if you believe that being a renter means your life should be perfect, unlike a homeowner. Homeowners all over the country found their heating struggling during this recent cold snap.

I guess you have a hard time seeing the difference between 10° challenging the heating system and a slumlord who sets the thermostat at 60° to save money.

5

LithiumFlow t1_j25ri55 wrote

I mean, no matter how you look at it, the law in NJ is at least 65 at night and 68 during the day. In your case, I doubt any reasonable tenant is going to complain about 66 degrees on a very cold day, but as weather continues to get more extreme it really is your responsibility to make sure your heating system can keep up.

It's hard for everybody, sure, including homeowners. But if you can afford a down payment and a mortgage you can afford to heat the place, ESPECIALLY if you have tenants paying you rent. Let's not pretend landlords are some victims here and tenants are some prestige class that get special treatment. These laws exist for a reason.

10

Blecher_onthe_Hudson OP t1_j2606cj wrote

This apartment pays for its own heat, I'm just trying to figure out whether the heating system I've installed is adequate even if it drops a few degrees under the most extreme circumstances.

2

LithiumFlow t1_j266z5i wrote

I get it, I didn't mean literally pay for the heat. What I should have said was landlords should be able to afford and provide an adequate heating system that can keep up with the legal requirements.

Either way it seems like you're fine. I just took issue with the snarky comment to the above poster. Thinking tenants should be able to live in conditions afforded to them by the law doesn't mean they all deserve "perfect lives."

3

fuzedz t1_j25hdv7 wrote

Pretty sure its 65 overnight 68 daytime

4

Mysterious_Price_113 t1_j290zcy wrote

I almost feel like PSEG capped the gas that fuels our heating to conserve energy those days. I put my thermostats to 74 and it took all day to heat up my 3 level home. Supplemented with a couple of electric space heaters.

0